New Engine @ 19,000 miles
07-31-2005, 10:12 PM
#101
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Engine Replacement Recall
Originally Posted by Mazdaspeedgirl
Yep, that's right. This tops off the tranny rebuild we had done at 10,000 miles (SEVERE grindage).
It began as a simple thing, really. I took the car in for delayed starting. No, this was not the typical dragging start that is related to the battery. The starter cranked the engine at normal speed. It was taking about 10 seconds of cranking to start. Sometimes it wouldn't start, but it would start right up on the second round of cranking.
A simple fix, I thought. I figured maybe the spark plugs were getting gummy. I am friends with the head Mazda mechanic at our dealership here. He checked the plugs, but they were fine. Out of curiosity, and perhaps because the plugs were already out, he checked the compression on the motor. He said Mazda minimum standards were that the compression be at 98% on the rotors. Mine was diagnosed as 84% on the front rotor and 74% (
) on the rear rotor.
The service manager called Mazda about the issue because my poor car's motor was quite worn at only 18,992 miles. It took much deliberation, but they decided to warranty the motor (as if they had a choice
). They were asking questions about modifications to the car from exhaust to even if it had after market wheels!!!
Anyhoo, I think my 8 will be one of the poor damned souls, like many of the FDs.
I am by far not complaining. I love my car, but if she is going to need engines replaced in that kind of time frame, I will be forced to get rid of her.
Just a word of warning for you guys, if anything like the problems I was having happens, get the compression checked. Hell, I'd have them do it anyway, especially because my car was running just fine once started (it was idling a little rough though). We'd have never known, if it had not been for my friend. Who knows--the engine prolly would have worn completely out just out of warranty. That would surely suck.
It began as a simple thing, really. I took the car in for delayed starting. No, this was not the typical dragging start that is related to the battery. The starter cranked the engine at normal speed. It was taking about 10 seconds of cranking to start. Sometimes it wouldn't start, but it would start right up on the second round of cranking.
A simple fix, I thought. I figured maybe the spark plugs were getting gummy. I am friends with the head Mazda mechanic at our dealership here. He checked the plugs, but they were fine. Out of curiosity, and perhaps because the plugs were already out, he checked the compression on the motor. He said Mazda minimum standards were that the compression be at 98% on the rotors. Mine was diagnosed as 84% on the front rotor and 74% (
) on the rear rotor.The service manager called Mazda about the issue because my poor car's motor was quite worn at only 18,992 miles. It took much deliberation, but they decided to warranty the motor (as if they had a choice
). They were asking questions about modifications to the car from exhaust to even if it had after market wheels!!!Anyhoo, I think my 8 will be one of the poor damned souls, like many of the FDs.
I am by far not complaining. I love my car, but if she is going to need engines replaced in that kind of time frame, I will be forced to get rid of her.
Just a word of warning for you guys, if anything like the problems I was having happens, get the compression checked. Hell, I'd have them do it anyway, especially because my car was running just fine once started (it was idling a little rough though). We'd have never known, if it had not been for my friend. Who knows--the engine prolly would have worn completely out just out of warranty. That would surely suck.
Has anyone else heard from their Dealers or elsewhere about a pending recall of all RX8's for a complete engine replacement? I heard from the GM at my dealer that they are preparing for a recall to change all the Renesis engines due to a seal shrinkage and failure problem. He said that they expect to start this some time late next month.
07-31-2005, 10:33 PM
#102
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can you tell us the name of the dealer? if not could you at least give us an idea of where you live.
no- no one has heard that rumour. there are recall letters going out next month for 2 other issues. nothing else.
no- no one has heard that rumour. there are recall letters going out next month for 2 other issues. nothing else.
08-01-2005, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Genrxer
Has anyone else heard from their Dealers or elsewhere about a pending recall of all RX8's for a complete engine replacement? I heard from the GM at my dealer that they are preparing for a recall to change all the Renesis engines due to a seal shrinkage and failure problem. He said that they expect to start this some time late next month.
I smell another 40-something page thread.
If this is ends up being true, I'll eat my words with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
08-01-2005, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Genrxer
I'd get the wine ready, this dealer knows his stuff and sells lots of RX8's. I guess we will have to wait for the end of August and see what happens.
08-01-2005, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Genrxer
I'd get the wine ready, this dealer knows his stuff and sells lots of RX8's. I guess we will have to wait for the end of August and see what happens.
08-02-2005, 10:39 AM
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Engine Replacement
I know the dealer well, and because this is not public yet I do not want to post his dealership. I don't really care whether you believe it or not, just trying to give everyone a heads up on the information I received. I guess we will just have to wait and see if I am wrong or not.
08-02-2005, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by PaulieWalnuts
Your credibility is becoming suspect. I already asked who the dealer is a couple of posts ago and no response. What's the dealer's name?
I cannot imagine a recall on every single RX8. Testing is always ongoing, especially for the first few years after the release of a new model/engine. Again, if there was any MAJOR defect found in the engine, or any vital component for that matter, production of the car would halt. I haven't heard anything about this. One dealer telling a customer (even if you know him well) that all the engines will have to be replaced is hardly on good authority. I cannot recall how many stories I've heard of dealers, service reps, mechanics, etc. giving out false information or exaggerations of the truth. Sorry man, but until you can give us something more concrete, you're credibility is nil.
08-02-2005, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Genrxer
Has anyone else heard from their Dealers or elsewhere about a pending recall of all RX8's for a complete engine replacement? I heard from the GM at my dealer that they are preparing for a recall to change all the Renesis engines due to a seal shrinkage and failure problem. He said that they expect to start this some time late next month.
08-16-2005, 10:28 PM
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I just rebuilt the engine in my racecar due to low compression (75 psi rear rotor, didn't bother to check front after I saw that). History was 2000 street miles, followed by 2000 race miles - all at 6500-9000 rpm's. I'd guess that is equivalent to at least 15-20K street miles.
I am pretty sure that the problems reported are not apex or any other seal "wear". Every seal and spring in the engine measured at the top end of "new" tolerances. The problem seems to be that the apex seals were warped, they are convex by about .001 new, but mine were about .001 concave. Barring an oil metering pump failure I'd guess that that is the problem with most of these engines. The side seals were plenty thick, although a couple of them were a bit rounded at the corner seal/side seal contact point. I don't know if that is wear or manufacturing tolerance, but all of the gaps spec'd out good, so I'm not too worried about that.
My car seems to runs leaner than most, and that could be a contributing factor. It seems logical that heat would be the main culprit. Until I can find out more hard data I am going to be adding some premix to the gas in the hope of reducing friction between the apex seal and rotor housing. I have also ordered a new MAF sensor and will do a swap and compare A/F ratios. Of course if I'd rather rebuild annually than lose a couple of horsepower to a rich mixture, but that's racing...
The blinking CEL mentioned earlier in the thread is always misfire. Not detonation - misfire, i.e. incomplete combustion. The computer detects this by comparing the expected motion of the eccentric shaft with the measured motion, presumably a dead combustion event results in less e-shaft motion. I had blinking CEL's often in my early racing, and in one case a hard CEL, but as the motor broke in, they went away. Now with the fresh motor I get blinking CEL's every time I run it at a fast idle, and hard CEL's more often than not, which jives with the "new engine" experience. It may be that I haven't succeeded in clearing the NVRAM (per the e-shaft position sensor TSB), and that may be the problem with mazdaspeedgirl's car too. I am still on the M flash and have no way of knowing for sure. I am going to try one more time and pump the brake pedal as fast as my little foot can tomorrow.
Hope that adds some insight, I'm also hoping that the CEL's go away soon - they check for that in impound, and you get bounced for a hard CEL in the class I race (SCCA Touring).
Steven
I am pretty sure that the problems reported are not apex or any other seal "wear". Every seal and spring in the engine measured at the top end of "new" tolerances. The problem seems to be that the apex seals were warped, they are convex by about .001 new, but mine were about .001 concave. Barring an oil metering pump failure I'd guess that that is the problem with most of these engines. The side seals were plenty thick, although a couple of them were a bit rounded at the corner seal/side seal contact point. I don't know if that is wear or manufacturing tolerance, but all of the gaps spec'd out good, so I'm not too worried about that.
My car seems to runs leaner than most, and that could be a contributing factor. It seems logical that heat would be the main culprit. Until I can find out more hard data I am going to be adding some premix to the gas in the hope of reducing friction between the apex seal and rotor housing. I have also ordered a new MAF sensor and will do a swap and compare A/F ratios. Of course if I'd rather rebuild annually than lose a couple of horsepower to a rich mixture, but that's racing...
The blinking CEL mentioned earlier in the thread is always misfire. Not detonation - misfire, i.e. incomplete combustion. The computer detects this by comparing the expected motion of the eccentric shaft with the measured motion, presumably a dead combustion event results in less e-shaft motion. I had blinking CEL's often in my early racing, and in one case a hard CEL, but as the motor broke in, they went away. Now with the fresh motor I get blinking CEL's every time I run it at a fast idle, and hard CEL's more often than not, which jives with the "new engine" experience. It may be that I haven't succeeded in clearing the NVRAM (per the e-shaft position sensor TSB), and that may be the problem with mazdaspeedgirl's car too. I am still on the M flash and have no way of knowing for sure. I am going to try one more time and pump the brake pedal as fast as my little foot can tomorrow.
Hope that adds some insight, I'm also hoping that the CEL's go away soon - they check for that in impound, and you get bounced for a hard CEL in the class I race (SCCA Touring).
Steven
08-17-2005, 10:12 AM
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why warped?
SBURKETT
What is your best "theory" as to WHY the APEX seals were warped?
Poor seal quality?
Intense heat?
Both?
Did you replace the Apex seals with the same type that originally came with the engine, or is there an alternate available?
Thanks
Rob in Vegas
40 days without my car and counting...........
What is your best "theory" as to WHY the APEX seals were warped?
Poor seal quality?
Intense heat?
Both?
Did you replace the Apex seals with the same type that originally came with the engine, or is there an alternate available?
Thanks
Rob in Vegas
40 days without my car and counting...........
08-17-2005, 12:02 PM
#115
I seem to remember a while back when someone was discussing porting that the seals where not fitting as tightly as expected from the factory. Still within acceptable range but not as expected. Judge Itto a long time ago said that we where going to have problems with the seals in this engine because of the side exhaust. I think that still remains to be seen but I would like to see more compression tests results out there.
The omp is known to be lacking at substained high rpm as in racing. It seems to be ok for the street. But i dont like that. So I run a pre mix. Doesnt hurt and it may damn well help a lot in the long run. Engine does seem a little smoother but it also may be a result of a couple extra pounds on my butt.
I hope the heck Mazda doesnt have to replace engines. If they do there goes a good resale value. Not that I'm selling. i'm not. Even with some problems i still love this car. It only gets better. Heck I m still getting recalls on a Honda 2002 odessy van!
Olddragger
The omp is known to be lacking at substained high rpm as in racing. It seems to be ok for the street. But i dont like that. So I run a pre mix. Doesnt hurt and it may damn well help a lot in the long run. Engine does seem a little smoother but it also may be a result of a couple extra pounds on my butt.
I hope the heck Mazda doesnt have to replace engines. If they do there goes a good resale value. Not that I'm selling. i'm not. Even with some problems i still love this car. It only gets better. Heck I m still getting recalls on a Honda 2002 odessy van!
Olddragger
08-17-2005, 12:59 PM
#116
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Sburkett,
Can you explain how the seal is warping? Is is along the long axis of the seal or top to bottom?
I can't tell from the picture of the apex seal on the Mazdatrix site (http://www.mazdatrix.com/8pics/8engine/apex.jpg) which part of the seal is concave. Given that picture, how are your seals deformed?
Thanks for contributing this information. It's good to see some real facts in the midst of all the speculation.
Can you explain how the seal is warping? Is is along the long axis of the seal or top to bottom?
I can't tell from the picture of the apex seal on the Mazdatrix site (http://www.mazdatrix.com/8pics/8engine/apex.jpg) which part of the seal is concave. Given that picture, how are your seals deformed?
Thanks for contributing this information. It's good to see some real facts in the midst of all the speculation.
08-17-2005, 07:33 PM
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As far as how they warped, if you're looking at the seal in the picture from the above reply, mine was shaped slightly like a smile, and they are shaped slightly like a frown when new.
I had a helper at the shop and did a compression test today, and the car made 90 psi about 15psi more than it was before the rebuild. That is still low, but I think that part of that is that I'm using cheap piston engine compression testers (one with and one without valve for comparison) and I didn't check cranking rpm. Part is that the motor isn't fully broken in yet. There is no butt dyno or idle difference, car actually ran fine before, just slightly down on power and a race car needs all it can get.
As far as "why" the seals warped, I have to assume heat, although I suppose that with the double springs and less material the "weak spot" on the seals is the center, so maybe any leaking gas could cause the seal to flex downward at that point and eventually warp. I'm not much on metalurgy so I don't know if that is even feasible with the seal material we are talking about (it would have to flex pretty far I would think to pass the critical point and actually "bend).
Anyway, I replaced my seals with new stock seals. Ceramic seals would solve the problem I'm sure, and provide a bit of a horsepower bump to boot, but they are $2000/set, not available yet, and not legal for the class I race, so they were pretty much out. According to Mazda Motorsports, they will be available to the general public (or at least to Motorsports members) within the next month or so. The tuners have had them for a loooong time, but I heard a rumor that there have been breakage problems in testing so there have probably been some engineering changes in that time.
There was no other wear at all, other than a few minor tracks on the bearings, I guess some grit found its way into the system. I probably could have reused them, but changed all four bearings just to be safe.
Anyway, I'm satisfied that I can run an engine for about 20-25 hours before it suffers measurable degradation, and that it will only need a freshening to the tune of $500 in parts at that time. I'm sure after a couple more seasons the engine will need more than just apex seals, but I can live with that for sure. Usually some sort of external failure or abuse kills race engines long before that.
Oh, and I'm also hopeful that the premix works out, and that this engine will be good for a couple of seasons, which is really all anyone can ask of a race car (though certainly not a street car).
Steven
I had a helper at the shop and did a compression test today, and the car made 90 psi about 15psi more than it was before the rebuild. That is still low, but I think that part of that is that I'm using cheap piston engine compression testers (one with and one without valve for comparison) and I didn't check cranking rpm. Part is that the motor isn't fully broken in yet. There is no butt dyno or idle difference, car actually ran fine before, just slightly down on power and a race car needs all it can get.
As far as "why" the seals warped, I have to assume heat, although I suppose that with the double springs and less material the "weak spot" on the seals is the center, so maybe any leaking gas could cause the seal to flex downward at that point and eventually warp. I'm not much on metalurgy so I don't know if that is even feasible with the seal material we are talking about (it would have to flex pretty far I would think to pass the critical point and actually "bend).
Anyway, I replaced my seals with new stock seals. Ceramic seals would solve the problem I'm sure, and provide a bit of a horsepower bump to boot, but they are $2000/set, not available yet, and not legal for the class I race, so they were pretty much out. According to Mazda Motorsports, they will be available to the general public (or at least to Motorsports members) within the next month or so. The tuners have had them for a loooong time, but I heard a rumor that there have been breakage problems in testing so there have probably been some engineering changes in that time.
There was no other wear at all, other than a few minor tracks on the bearings, I guess some grit found its way into the system. I probably could have reused them, but changed all four bearings just to be safe.
Anyway, I'm satisfied that I can run an engine for about 20-25 hours before it suffers measurable degradation, and that it will only need a freshening to the tune of $500 in parts at that time. I'm sure after a couple more seasons the engine will need more than just apex seals, but I can live with that for sure. Usually some sort of external failure or abuse kills race engines long before that.
Oh, and I'm also hopeful that the premix works out, and that this engine will be good for a couple of seasons, which is really all anyone can ask of a race car (though certainly not a street car).
Steven
08-17-2005, 07:51 PM
#118
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you should know that speedsource has run for a whole season plus without measurable performance degradation or need for rebuild. same is true for the star mazda renesis powered cars.
08-17-2005, 08:07 PM
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That's interesting, I had not heard that, in fact I have heard from several independent sources that the pro mazda atlantics were rebuilding as often as every weekend due to warped seals. So I did some poking around, and found this document, dated February of this year:
http://www.starmazda.com/competitors...20BULLETIN.pdf
Which, if you scroll right to the bottom, makes it pretty clear that the Star mazda guys are already running the ceramic seals. Not sure why we the "general public" can't buy them yet, but last I talked to Mazda Motorsports I was told they were still in testing.
Steven
http://www.starmazda.com/competitors...20BULLETIN.pdf
Which, if you scroll right to the bottom, makes it pretty clear that the Star mazda guys are already running the ceramic seals. Not sure why we the "general public" can't buy them yet, but last I talked to Mazda Motorsports I was told they were still in testing.
Steven
Last edited by sburkett; 08-17-2005 at 08:21 PM.
09-27-2005, 06:59 PM
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I haven't been here in a while, but the e. shaft sensor "adjustment" they did mnay have helped with the CEL, but I rarely drive the 8 much anymore. She gets maybe 50 miles a week. I'm honestly scared to, especially since it has been rumored that they won't fix my car anymore.
It's too bad we have never had the chance to autocross this car and never will. I'll stick to my miata.
Good insight, though, Steven.
It's too bad we have never had the chance to autocross this car and never will. I'll stick to my miata.
Good insight, though, Steven.
09-27-2005, 07:06 PM
#122
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Originally Posted by sburkett
That's interesting, I had not heard that, in fact I have heard from several independent sources that the pro mazda atlantics were rebuilding as often as every weekend due to warped seals. So I did some poking around, and found this document, dated February of this year:
http://www.starmazda.com/competitors...20BULLETIN.pdf
Which, if you scroll right to the bottom, makes it pretty clear that the Star mazda guys are already running the ceramic seals. Not sure why we the "general public" can't buy them yet, but last I talked to Mazda Motorsports I was told they were still in testing.
Steven
http://www.starmazda.com/competitors...20BULLETIN.pdf
Which, if you scroll right to the bottom, makes it pretty clear that the Star mazda guys are already running the ceramic seals. Not sure why we the "general public" can't buy them yet, but last I talked to Mazda Motorsports I was told they were still in testing.
Steven
10-02-2005, 08:21 PM
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Well I have to say that I am also scared to get an RX-8 with the report on failed engines. Obviously, Mazda still can't get the damn things right. Is this isolated to AT cars? or at least less likely on MT's? I hear mostly AT cars with this problem. I have been working hard for years to get a new sports car and there's not much else out there that I want. This is one of the reasons why you can get a good deal on these new, but can't a Mustang for much less than sticker price. People are afraid of rotary cars. The FD's were lemons, IMO. Any car that can't make 100K miles is worthless, even if it is a turbo. These are not racing cars we are buying. I realize that we are only hearing from those that have problems, but I did not work all these years to buy a lemon. I was planning to get a used 2004, but now with all this talk, I won't settle for anything less than a 2006 model or nothing. Problem, is I probably won't be able to afford a new one. I miss the days of nice $20K cars. Civic SI? No thanks. Would probably look for a nice (and unmodified) used Prelude if I can't get an 8. I like the styling, though not as much as the 8. I just can't see getting a car with a payment as big as my house. I wan't a base model MT with only a wing, that's it. I will probably drive it very easily compared to most of you. It probably will never break 7 seconds 0-60 because I will never shift it too fast or hard. Do I need to worry getting an MT? I spoke to a Mazda tech last week who was working on my 626(a little less than impressed with this one as well) and he said he had seen a few engine failures as well, here in SC. It gets damn hot here, but not for long, and I think he said that most were AT's as well. Why are the AT's failing more often. What a shame. The most exciting car this side of a Ferrari, with the life of a Yugo. Enlighten me please!
10-03-2005, 02:03 AM
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Where's your sense of adventure? You've got 50k miles to see how it works for you. The RX8 is listed as one of KB's top 10 vehicles in retained value. Car and Driver bught one and put 45k miles on it with only a catalytic converter problem. They are still driving it now. They liked the RX-8 so much and were so impressed that they created a brand new extended vehicle test just so they could keep it another year. Even with all the bad press on the 3rd Gen's they still go for 17k to 22k with low miles and clean. Cheapest I've ever seen them is 13k for thrashed cars. Retaining 50% to 65% of it's original value is darn good for a 10 year old or older car.
I feel for you those that are having trouble. Fight tooth and nail to get your cars fixed our replaced. As far as I cam concerned, Mazda is being good to those with bad engines. Usually, the manufacturers rebuild your engine rather than replacing it with an entirely new one.
I feel for you those that are having trouble. Fight tooth and nail to get your cars fixed our replaced. As far as I cam concerned, Mazda is being good to those with bad engines. Usually, the manufacturers rebuild your engine rather than replacing it with an entirely new one.
10-03-2005, 07:58 AM
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Usually, the manufacturers rebuild your engine rather than replacing it with an entirely new one.