BlackRX82006

iTrader: (1)

Huey, no problems with a rattling airbag bracket?

msrecant

Actually it is Mazda saying the original build parts need to be replaced. The "Engine cranks no start" service bulletin references four changes to improve avoiding/recovering from engine flooding:

- Updated PCM firmware (For cars built before 3/04)
- Larger battery (for cars built before 6/04)
- More powerful starter (for cars built before 12/04)
- Redesigned leading plugs (for cars built before 4/05)

If you have done all the Mazda recalls then the PCM firmware and plugs have already been done. The battery and starter replacement is done if you have had a starting problem (of any kind) or if you specifically asked for it.

You can print a copy of the bulletin from http://www.finishlineperformance.com...48-06-1691.pdf .

Note: Mazda still recommends against cutting the engine off cold, even with all the updates. Best bet to avoid flooding is to make sure the engine has warmed up before turning it off.

ckrivin

You "guys" are the BOMB! Thank you for your help thus far. Todays events. Local battery shop tested batt all weekend and found was not not holding charge. (ah ha!) Offered me "Willis" 630CCA battery for 59.99 or Optima red top for 159.99 (800CCA). Said the Yellow top was not suitable for a car but OK for a boat due to deep cycle design? I didn't know how to reply but I think they'll sell me what I ask for (if I can come up w/ a good reason why). ALSO called Mazda corporate. They informed me that "no start due to flooding is no longer paid for by Mazda, considered operator error". Quite a shocker. I also talked to the dealer (North Penn Mazda) and they gave me the opposite answer, indicating they typically cover spark plug / coil replacement. I asked about the starter, DLR admitted it is an upgrade but tried to tell me not necissary. My car went into service August 03, but shouldn't I still be in the extended warranty w/ 40K miles? Oh yeah dlr offered me replacement 630CCA bat for 100.00. Such a deal. At this point I'm considering just buying the optima battery and a set of plugs from pettit racing, clearing the EPROM and then trying the "hold the gas pedal to the floor" process and avoiding the dealer entirely. Anyone know if the upgraded starter is available aftermarket?

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

The Red Top is fine, and new plugs sure can't hurt. I'd try that trick of pulling both leading and trailing plugs and using compressed air to dry the combustion chamber; just be sure to get the plugs back into the right places, ie don't swap the leading and trailing plugs - bad juju for the rotors. New battery, new plugs, dry chamber, should fire right up. Keep us posted.

msrecant, thanks for the TSB.

BlackRX82006

iTrader: (1)

Buy flood insurance...haha

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

the stig

i have read first 2 pages of this thread and i still have a question.

im new to rx-8, lets say if one day my 8 didnt start in the morning. what should i do? crank it again? or like other thread said, step on the gas and crank it for 7 to 8 secs?

tia

BlackRX82006

iTrader: (1)

I was forced to say it!!

web123

is there anything you can do to fix the flooding besides taking to the shop and spending $158??

web123

is there anything you can do to the car after it has flooded besides taking it to the shop and spending $158

BlackRX82006

iTrader: (1)

Drain it...har har. Jesus I'm being evil...

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

Sure.

Some shops charge upwards of $300, so there's an option

Sorry, man, BlackRX82006 is rubbing off on me. Anyway, as near as I can tell, the best options to "deflood" the beast have been covered here.

There are two elements to the flooding problem: first, excess fuel in the combustion chamber hosing down the plugs, and second, possibly washing down of the cylinder with gas causing loss of compression (no oil seal). I read the TSB that was posted about this problem and one of the options for stubborn cars is pulling oil into the rotors through vaccuum fittings to restore rotor seal and therefore compression. I don't know if you've ever hosed down the cylinders of a piston motor with gas and washed the oil off the rings, but you can crank the car all day and it will not start - sounds kind of funny too. Pour a little oil in each plug hole, and voila, the motor starts - and smokes like a bitch for a few minutes.

All this leads me to believe there may be two stages to a flooded motor: condition 1 is when the plugs are wet but the rotor seal is still good and the motor has compression. This condition probably responds well to the methods that restrict gas flow during the starting cycle: holding the gas pedal to the floor, pulling the fuel pump fuse, pulling the plugs and blowing the chamber dry. Then, there's what I believe to be Condition Two, which is condition one plus the loss of compression as a result of the rotor seal being compromised by excess gas washing away the oil in the chamber. This probably happens when the car is cranked and cranked and cranked without removing the excess fuel; this is probably what happened on ckrivins car. Plus, it's all made worse by weak batteries/weak starters/weak coils.

So: my best guess is keep a hot battery in your car, make sure the starter is up to date, make sure you've got some good NGK plugs, and that your coils don't look like they've been baked. And if you flood it, don't sit there and crank the hell out of it hoping it'll start. If holding the pedal to the floor doesn't start the beast in two or three tries, just stop, you're gonna need to pull the plugs.

If this happens to me again and I can't get it to kick over, I may just pull the plugs and try to add a cc or two of oil through the plug holes after I blow the chamber dry.

msrecant

The official Mazda de-choke procedure is as follows:

ROTARY ENGINE STARTING TIPS

Repeated 1 to 2 second cranking duration may cause excessive flooding and further aggravate an already present no-start condition. Mazda recommends cranking the engine for the maximum duration of 8 seconds when trying to start the vehicle during a no-start condition.


DE-CHOKING PROCEDURE WHEN ENGINE CRANKS BUT DOES NOT START

If the engine does not start, try the following procedure to start the engine using the de-choke mode. Failure to do so may aggravate the no start condition.

Cranking Tips
- Attempt to start the engine up to 3 times.
- Allow engine to crank a maximum of 8 seconds when attempting to start.
- Allow minimum of 3 seconds between cranking sessions. If the starter motor is not allowed to cool between cranking sessions, the starter may spin too slow to start the engine.

1. Depress and hold the accelerator pedal to the floor and crank the engine for 7-8 seconds. (This will clean out any unburned fuel from the combustion chamber)

2. Release the ignition key to stop cranking and wait 3 seconds.

3. Release the accelerator pedal and start the engine. If the engine starts while performing Step 1, the engine will rev up. Immediately release the ignition key to stop cranking and remove your foot from the accelerator pedal.

• Do not keep holding the ignition switch in the START position over 10 seconds if the engine does not start. This may result in a weakened or dead battery.
• Avoid racing the engine or sudden take off right after starting the engine.
• If the engine still fails to start following the De-choking procedure, have your vehicle inspected by your Mazda Dealer.

ckrivin

Ok, latest. Bought yellow top optima battery. 860 cold cranking amps! Now if THAT doesn't help. But DLR agreed to replace starter, plugs under warranty and tow for free! I'm all over that (hopefully they don't do more damage than the price of the starter would have been). But battery dealer sold me wrong battery (+ / - terminals are on the wrong side) cant anything be simple?

r1hundy

Well guys, after much reading and investigating, it seems that everyone takes their cars to the dealer when they are flooded. I tried the method listed in the owners manual of holding the accelerator to the floor and winding it over, no go. Left the car for a couiple days, still no starting from carking it over with the key. I gave up, called the Mazda helpline, they sent out a Jump Start expert and he said, nuh, just call them back and get a transporter to collect the car and take it to the local Mazda dealer, it'll never start in a million years he says.

At this stage I was annoyed that everyone seems to be resolved to the fact that the car will never go without, removing plugs etc. I hoped my car would be the same as all the other rotaries I have owned in the past or still own, R100, RX2, RX7 convertible etc. So I got a tow rope and towed it less than a hundred yards down the road, the car fired easily and is running mint as, not missing a beat.

I state that this has worked well for me, so if you have a manual transmission model, why not give this a go, you got nothing to lose. If you have an auto, then this method is not for you I'm afraid.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Nope. But then, I've only got 14K miles on it.

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

There we go. Another tool in the arsenal. Where did you hook the tow chain to your car?

ckrivin

Whell the yellow top optima battery is aparently only made one way... with the terminals on the wrong sides. But the cables can be extended, just need to figure out how! 8 got flatbedded to north penn mazda last night, looking forward to drive her home w/new starter and all...

msrecant

This link points to a DYI thread about modifying the battery cables. Also, this link points to a specific post in that thread where someone found a Yellow Top with the terminals in the correct position.

F.W.I.W.

AndyRx8's

Yes it has happened to me a few times but it only seems to happen when the battery has run flat abit. I found that if the motor is flooded you must swing the motor over a few times without letting the injecters pump feul into the motor .

r1hundy

In the owner's manual it says to pop open the top right hand side of the grill and you can wind the towing eye loacted in the factory tool kit in there. Very cool and nicely hidden, I was looking for a towing eye under the front of the car for ages, ha ha ha.

AndrewE

I have stored mine since October 13th 07, and as of today it wont start.

I assume this calls for the usual procedures reguarding flooding? It was about 40F today(8c) and I just replaced the plugs and coils about 7000km ago.....

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

Sounds like it. Check and charge the battery first, then either follow msrecant's checklist on post #1590 on this thread, or if it's a manual, you might try the tow start procedure. Let us know how you do.

If it was me, I'd be aggressive about it: get those plugs out, dry the chambers, charge the battery/get a new battery/get a jump before I tried to restart it. The more you fail to restart, the harder it is to get it going again.

AndrewE

well i tried to dry the chambers by remocing the plugs and rolling it for a few second and leaving to dry with plugs and i charged the battery and still no luck
I'm about to add oil in through the intake port nipples and try again after a short break while i wait for the battery to charge back up again

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

I"d put a set of jumpers on it when I cranked it. How do the plugs look?