MEGAREDS

Are you just teasing us rotarygod? Are you saying I could have avoided flooding my engine when I came home from work and found that my wife had moved my car?

sferrett

Why don't you folllow the short-trip procedures in the manual?

Kinda like wondering why you get burned when you tip coffee from McDonalds on you - didn't you read the warning on the cup?

radar

I had been concerned about the flooding but I found that if I spin the engine up without touching the gas pedal, it starts flawlessly everytime. I had a moment of fear in a grocery store parking lot when it wouldn't start, but it was because I was depressing the pedal while trying to start it. Ever since then I have stopped depressing the pedal and it starts immediately. We only have 1,000 miles on it so it could get worse. To my surprise it hasn't used a drop of oil. So far I am very happy with it, we are even getting around 18 mpg average with mostly city driving.

KBert

I noticed the engine light come on after only 80 km on my new RX8. The dealer told me to bring it in. Their diagnosis was that the engine was flooded and the spark plugs were effected by this too. I was very aware of the warnings not to turn the car off immediately and to let it warm up so I was very surprised that this happened. They told me that perhaps the car had some issue before I even received it.

Well I got the car back tonight and was happy to have it back. I warmed it up and took it out for a spin only for the darn engine light to come back on again. The car runs and starts no problem however the engine light denotes that there is probably another flooding issue like before.

Needless to say with less than 100km on a new car I am not very impressed and I have to admit I feel a little bit of buyers remorse. I love the car but if it is going to be this finicky I am really going to get nervous. How do you give the car back if it keeps doing this? You know how dealers are. Once you buy it is your problem. This is very inconvenient to say the least. Now I will be without a car for another day and it is extremely inconvenient just to bring the car into the dealer as everyone knows.

Has anyone else had this problem with the engine light coming on for no apparent fault of your own? (with the result being flooding)

sferrett

The dealer is talking out of their ***... When the car is flooded it won't start. It doesn't flood when you're driving along.

Probably your gas cap is loose or there is some other sensor indicating an issue. There are a myriad of reasons why the check engine light might come on, the dealer should be able to pull the error codes from the computer and know which system is generating the error and go from there.

Filling your head with paranoia about flooding should be something they should not do... Sounds like you're following the short trip procedures and you didn't mention any problems starting so you're on the right track for avoiding any actual flooding issues.

If you really want to give up on figuring out what is probably a faulty sensor or something else equally as benign you should check the lemon laws in your area (if they have any) and go from there.

But - don't believe the dealer telling you the car is flooded, unless it won't start then it's not flooded and the engine light is for some other reason.

Simon.

KBert

Thanks Simon. That really makes sense. I ended up taking the car to another dealer and they told me the same thing that you just wrote here that it doesn't sound like flooding. He will be giving me the results today when they check into it. They gave me a loaner which the other dealer didn't do the first time so that made me feel better.

All I want is the car back working like it is supposed to. I will update when I get the results from them.

KBert

Okay I got the car back and what I got was good news. The dealer told me that the other dealer that I brought the car to originally was so totally wrong about the diagnosis. It was not a flooding problem (obviously as the car was running fine.) The reason the engine light was coming on had to do with a problem with the catalytic converter which was defective from day one.

They put the order in for a brand new one and told me that I could drive the car no problem with the light on until they receive the new converter for me in a few days.

Needless to say I am very happy now. I have my car back and there was no problem with flooding. Woo Hoo. Zoom zoom.

By the way, the more I drive this car the more I love it. It is a beauty!

sferrett

Good to hear that they figured out what the problem was and you're getting it fixed up - sad to hear that there's an uninformed dealer running about telling phooey to their customers though, but sounds like it's not an unusual occurance either.

Once you get used to the powerband/rev-range in the car and comfortable with the handling it does get more and more fun to drive.

Cheers,
Simon

snap-on

If the code was a P0420 the new converter will not fix the problem. The code list in the manual tells the tech that the converter is defective...In reality it is a PCM problem.

Find out what the code is and post it please.

KBert

I will find out and post it

zoom44

a P0420 is i think the same code i got for a false evap test failure. am i correct there? but i thought that "bug" was fixed by a pcm version several letters ago. like k or earlier.

which reminds me i was going to start a list of codes, their meanings and the fixes. i need to get on that.

snap-on

The P0420 is a false reading from the front 02 sensor.

The evap system was a P2404/P0456 code.

check out the evap system here.

http://forum.mazda6tech.com/viewtopic.php?t=16

The system in the Rx8 is the same as the Mz6

I know this is way off topic for the thread..I apologize

RotorManiac

Can somebody help me PLEASE?

I had some starting problems with my 8 (no flooding) but since the dealers/mechanics here are not so well informed, I'd like to hear the opinions of some of you guys who are expert with the rotary engines.Please bare with me:

My rx-8 has only 1400miles. When the dealer handed over the keys to me on day one, he said: 'before turning the engine off, rev it to 4000rpm, keep it there for a sec or two, and then kill it so that it burns the excess fuel in the chamber'(method 1). Sounded wierd, but I did exactly what he told me.

At 500miles I'm back at the dealer to check something else, and a mechanic sees me turning off the engine like that and starts shouting! So I got pissed , since it was his boss's advice to do so! He insisted never to do that again,but let the engine run for 1 or 2 minutes before turning the ignition key off, like a turbo engine!(Method 2) I agreed with him,because he seemed well educated with the rotary's predicaments...

One day, when the car had 800miles, I was driving in traffic, and I reached my destination after one and a half hours I waited for well over 3 minutes before I turned the engine off. However when I got back I couldn't start up the car. I'm quite stubborn as a character, so after 20minutes I managed to bring the renesis to life by cranking for 8-10secs, pressing and lifting my foot off the accelerator pedal. Sad thing is that this story happened again at 900miles on the odometer.

After these incidents I decided to go back to method 1 (the one the dealer told me) and I have realized up until now that the car is starting immediately and with no problems at all! I wonder: is this causing damage to the engine? Or maybe it was the long trip in traffic the cause of all the problems?
Please know that the reflashes are not available in my country yet, so which is the right way to shut down the renesis engine? And when you start your car do you step on the accelerator? (I sometimes do out of fear that it won't start)

P.S. Sorry about the long story and if my english is not so good but I could use some help here (flooding seems very close... )

skagen

Hi there,

To clarify a few things. You do not need to rev the engine and shut it off if you have already warmed up the car. Flooding occurs when you cold start the vehicle and then shut it of instantly, for example moving it out of the garage to wash your car. As for your case, you already drove the car for an hour so there's no need to rev the engine.

Secondly, how are you starting your car? Are you holding down the gas pedal and starting your car? If you are, that's the reason why it won't start. If you hold down the gas pedal for about 10 seconds before turning the ignition it cuts off fuel to the engine. This is a safety mechanism that you use only if you believe the car is flooded. Some people have been holding down the gas pedal for 10 seconds and THEN turning the ignition. If you do this, the car might not start because there's no fuel being injected to the engine.

It doesn't hurt your car if you rev and then shut it off by the way. The best recommendation I can give is to get your pcm flash to "m." It is the latest update from Mazda and it is covered by warranty. Click on the link below and it clearly states that all 8's coming in for maintance of any kind should have their pcm flashed to "m" since it contains software logic that could prevent possible flooding conditions. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

http://www.finishlineperformance.com...1-04-1273d.pdf

RotorManiac

First of all, thanks for your time Skagen!

I am starting the car with the ignition key. I only use the gas pedal when it won't start, after two times of turning the ignition for a few seconds.

The reflash must be great from what I read in other threads. I 'll ask the dealer when it's going to be available in my country! By the way, the 'M' is better than the 'L', isn't it?(since it's the latest update?)

So your point is that the traffic was not the real problem. But how do you park your car, just bring it to a stop, turn it off straight away and then leave? You don't even wait for a minute or so?

sferrett

If the car is warmed up, I just shut it off - no throttle blips or excessive idling.

RotorManiac

Hmm, ok. Maybe I should just have it checked then and see why my 8 is giving me these bad starts...

skagen

Yes, that's correct. If you've been driving your 8 around for atleast 15 minutes you can go ahead and just park and shut it down. The only time you have to warm it up is say you parked it in the garage and you want to take it out to wash it. Then you would need to warm up the car after you started it cause its a cold start. If you shut it down immediately you might have a flood in the engine. Now, the "m" flash is supposed to prevent situations like that, so I would seriously suggest getting updated as soon as it comes out in your country.

Now, remember what your dealer told you? "before turning the engine off, rev it to 4000rpm, keep it there for a sec or two, and then kill it so that it burns the excess fuel in the chamber" this is a really good procedure if you're going to move the car a little distance like taking it out of the garage for a car wash. Its exactly what I do when I have to move my car only a few feet. The reason for it is because it burns off excess fuel as the engine spins when you turn it off, burning off some of the fuel that might still be in the engine chamber. Hope this helps you. Don't be intimidated by the way. The chances of flooding are minimal, now that doesn't mean it can't happen, but don't get too paranoid about it either.

pgtr

rotarygod - youv'e shared a lot of great info here - in fact so much good techie info I'm surprised you let a few of these slide thru. I can't begin to list all the good info - just suffice it to say that it's a LOT - thanks!

But I do have a few different $0.02 on a couple of items you posted - here's my take...


You CAN use ATF or what I prefer whcih is Marvel Mystery Oil believe it or not. In an older rotary that has sat a lon gwhile it can release seals and restore compression. In ANY rotary that is flooded it restores compression be restoring a film of oil on the housing needed for good compression. You don't have to add ATF but it can help. When gas condenses - the insides get sloppy wet w/ gas in it's liquid state. Gas is a solvent that 'cleans' the housing - having a rotor spin around in a chamber sloppy w/ gas will effectively have no compression not because of the shape of the seals (which can be more squared than you realize) but because the film is wiped clean by the gas.

On a cold engine a huge amount of gas is not required - that's why only a subset of injectors are firing when cranking...

A smaller injector does NOT make smaller (or larger particles) - it affects volume and only volume. A vapor particle is a vapor particle. Different injectors may have different spray patterns but that's incidental to size as well.

Like you I'm a little disappointed Mazda hasn't better put this issue to bed. They seem to be relearning and dealing w/ many issues of the past. Thru the 80s and 90s they were steadily improving gas mileage and they were steadily mitigating the flooding problem compared to teh early EGI days. Maybe it's like NASA going to the moon or osmething - too many years have gone by and perhaps some knowledge has not transferred? Heck when did they last develop a rotary? 12A and 13B came from teh early 1970s didnt' they?

thanks,

PS: I have another theory - in the intervening years since major Rx7 development (3rd gen), the EPA has more closely monitored and regulated emissions at startup - this could impact or constrain their options for mitigating flooding conditions...? Purely speculation on my part however...

RotorManiac

You helped me a lot Skagen, thanks! Especially when you said in your previous post that the gas pedal cuts off fuel when pressed(for 10secs). Didn't know that!

Oh, and paranoia became routine now with the bad starts. Happened again after I washed it, although she was warmed up! My baby plays hard... but I play harder :D hehe!! One way or another, I always get her up and running!

rotarygod

pgtr: The biggest issue with using ATF in the rotary is that it does cause the oil seals to permanently swell up. This is Mazda's excuse about synthetic oil but in that application the statement is pure fiction. You need to be very careful of how much you use and how many times you do it. ATF is some bad stuff. It does free up seals by eating carbon deposits but there are other ways around this. I won't risk damaging my oil seals by using it. Marvel mystery oil is fine and I use it when I build new engines. I will not let ATF anywhere near the inside of my engines. Take an oil control ring and soak it in ATF sometime. Next time I have one I'll do it and post a picture. It's scary to think people put that crap in their engines after you see the results. I'm not sure about the effects it has on the aftermarket Viton rings though and these are what I use in my RX-7 engine.

I stand by my statement on not building compression in a flooded engine. The issue is getting the excess fuel out of the engine and keeping the plugs clean enough to fire effectively. The chamber surface can be dead dry but as long as the plugs can get a good spark, the seals aren't stuck, and there isn't too much or too little fuel, the engine will fire. A dry surface may not be good from a friction and wear standpoint but it has nothing to do with how well the engine starts. There is always residual oil in the chamber if there is residual fuel anyways. Gas does not break it down. It is still there. If it completely dissolved it, there would be no point in spraying it into the combustion chamber.

A finer spray pattern really is the issue with injectors. Sometimes you just need to write things in simpler terms just to get the point across, even if it is slightly inaccurate from a technical standpoint. That is usually the issue that people get on my case about when I write things. They always try to analyze it down to the exact textbook definition rather than take it for what it is. I'm long winded enough. I don't need to write in even more detail if I can get the point across.

Irish_in_a_RX8

iTrader: (1)

I have heard of the flooding issue for quite awhile, and this norning it finally happened. Its a no start whatsoever...what gets me is I had the M flash last week. I thought this was supposed to improved the the possibility of NOT flooding. As many others, I am pretty frustrated. Its a Sunday, have to have it picked up tommorrow for the dealer to inspect.

I tried the methods mentioned here for starting the engine.No success. What a real pain in the ****! Only 9000 miles too!

Wayne

MEGAREDS

Sorry to hear that you flooded, Wayne. Can you give some details? Was the car cold when shut down? If so, how long before you retried it? What was the weather like? Did you use the emergency start procedure immediately, or after a few cranks, or not at all? What octane fuel were you using? Did the battery die on you?

RotaryGod has said in an earlier post that one who understands the problem should never flood, and I generally agree with him, but you've got 9k miles and have been around the block... what happened?

rotarygod

The key is to be proactive rather than retroactive about potential flooding issues.

I have a friend who looks at this forum but isn't subscribed who bought his car last month. We painted his brake calipers so the car sat around for a while and had time to cool. I told him to start it. About 10 seconds later I reached over and shut it off. He had this horrified look on his face. I told him I was going to prove a point. Believe me, he's read the flooding stories here. I told him to step on the gas and floor it. I then told him to crank the engine over and he did. He let it go for a few seconds then I told him to take his foot off of the gas while still cranking. The car started. This proved that there wasn't an abundance of fuel in the engine and that it would have started if he had just gotten in and cranked it with no gas. I let it run for about 30 seconds and again I shut it off. Once again I told him to hold his foot down and crank it and once again he did. This time after a few seconds the car started! When it started I immediately told him to take his foot off of the gas. It kept running. The engine will rev up high if you don't as fuel is reintroduced when it starts. Despite his foot being all the way down with no fuel going into the engine, there was still enough sitting in the combustion chamber to start it. He almost certainly would have flooded it if he had done it any other way. Needless to say that made a believer out of him and he isn't worried about flooding anymore. Luckily he is a very muscular person so if he ever did flood it, he has the strength to push the car fast enough to pop the clutch! I told him that if he is ever in doubt or worried, floor it when starting. If it doesn't start after a few seconds take your foot off the gas and it will. If it did start you did a good thing. This really isn't an inconveniece and only takes a few seconds. It is much faster than pushing it or calling a tow truck.

skagen

Well what exactly happened? Did you cold start it in the morning and shut it down? Give us a couple more details, it might not be flooded.