Murderbus

Hey Thanks for taking the time/interest in viewing this post. Watching the video should provide you with information you need. Of course not everything may have been covered over data readings from the AP, may not be the right ones necessary for this (Being that I am stumped I just took what I thought maybe some what relevant). Any questions are welcome, I am open to any suggestions.

I currently have been doing tuning sessions with MM, during theses sessions he was not seeing the issues I have been having while I take the data logs. I have exchanged 7ish logs with him, this problem has been happening since before I started the tuning with him so I figured one I started the process things would smooth over.. Well they have yet too lol. I sent MM a log of just basic driving and he told me "WOW" and that none of how the vehicle reacts has been showing up in the logs I have been sending him.

If anybody would like to see my AP logs I will E-mail them to you or if there is a better way then let me know. Wasnt able to figure out how to load them on here, told me invalid files.


*VIDEO LINK*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYD2r9PsFpA


*AFTER MAF SENSOR UNPLUGGED UPDATE*

Just took it over to a friend of mine who has a decent knowledge of rotary engines. Took him out for a short road cruise and showed him the issues (he experianced what you see in the video), once we pulled over he told me to take off my MAF Sensor (never occured to me) So I did. The computer of course was very confused by this blah blah blah, well anyways I took it back out for a road test and everything spooled and ran sooo much smoother, there was a high noticeable differnce in performance. Granted there was some spots of hesitation, or some spots when I would push harder on the gas where it would actually feel like everything just stopped (RPMs still up and car still on, just no reaction from the motor.). I am going to clean my MAF sensor, if it is such an easy fix I
will be exstatic! Does anybody have information about after market MAF sensors... am i heading in the right direction in thinking of that?

Follow up video to my last previously made video. I unplugged the MAF sensor and the car shows a noticeable increase in performance. After that I cleaned my MAF and it went back to hesitating and running like it did in the previous video. This video is taken after then cleaning with the MAF unplugged again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzERPvUVkTA

Some pictures



Here is a list of my performance modifications ( Just performance related )

Greddy Turbo Kit (rebuilt by pettit racing upgraded ball bearing, to be determined)
COBB Accessport w Mazda maniac tuning
Agency power TI Tipped Exhaust
Prosport 52mm Gauges: Water temp, oil temp, oil pressure
AgencyPower Silicone radiator hoses
LoTek: OEM trim 52mm Dash 3 gauge pod unit
Apexi Auto Timer
Greddy Oil Pan
Oil catch can
F1 Stage 3 racing clutch
F1 Counterweight
2 RC Engineering 650cc Injectors in p2 slot, 380cc in p1
BHR Ignition kit w/ wires
Tenable GF210 lowering springs 1.5in 30% stiffer than stock
MVP Motorsports Turbo Blanket/Black
Mishimoto Performance Aluminum Radiato
MVP Motorsports Stage 2 Brake Upgrade Kit for RX8
Agency power pulley kit
BHR 9lb flywheel
Walbro 255l fuel pump
Turbosmart manual boost controller


** Update **
Just took it over to a friend of mine who has a decent knowledge of rotary engines. Took him out for a short road cruise and showed him the issues (he experianced what you see in the video), once we pulled over he told me to take off my MAF Sensor (never occured to me) So I did. The computer of course was very confused by this blah blah blah, well anyways I took it back out for a road test and everything spooled and ran sooo much smoother, there was a high noticeable differnce in performance. Granted there was some spots of hesitation, or some spots when I would push harder on the gas where it would actually feel like everything just stopped (RPMs still up and car still on, just no reaction from the motor.). I am going to clean my MAF sensor, if it is such an easy fix I will be exstatic! Does anybody have information about after market MAF sensors... am i heading in the right direction in thinking of that?

- I had also noticed that when I drove with the MAF unplugged I didnt backfire once, backfiring has been very common usually every other time I release the gas pedal.

** Update **
Had TrevorsII another member head over to my house so that we could try out his MAF sensor on mine for a bit. Still the same issues as the first video no noticeable change what so ever DAMN! I was so pumped haha. Also I took out both of my o2 sensors, the rear one was pretty black up top and whiteish near the bottom, where as the front one was more white with little black up top. I cleaned them up a bit also to see if that would help.. Nothin.

laythor

i just want to make sure i read this right. You're driving around with a boosted 8 with the MAF unplugged?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Possibly (bogging) running very rich at light throttle for any number of reasons . First thing to establish is whether this is actually the case.
If you had a wide band AFR meter you would be able to see how rich it really is .

RX8Soldier

iTrader: (24)

cleaning the maf won't always help. The maf sensor MAY need to be replaced (if maf is indeed the issue).

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

any more info on this ?

Murderbus

I dont have any more info on this, honestly bought it from member TiCarbon somewhere round 2 years ago. I intalled the turbo 2 1/2 months or so ago. He said that it was rebuilt by them, I had never opened it up or anything when I got it (wouldnt know what I was looking at anyway honestly, and wouldnt want to pay a guy to do it for me just outta curiosity), just taking the word of another RX8club member ( lol ). When I bought the kit from him he did send a bunch of pettit oil additives along with it though. when he was selling it in his add and when I was asking some questions about it he told me that it was rebuilt by them. Told me it spools quicker then it did before I guess.

First time today yeah, thats what the second video is, was trying to trouble shoot, been open to anybodys thoughts on the issue and it seems to be improvement (not saying driving without the sensor plugged in is straight, but it did drastically change the performance of the vehicle which leads me to hope I am heading in the right direction with things). Kept an eye on A/F ratios and fuel trims. I am going to jack my car up and clean the O2 sensor, since I didnt have a clue on what exatly to expect out of the MM tuning process (if my problem was common to begin with during the early stages of sending in data logs) I have been driving the vehicle with lots of back fires keeping it out of boost (trying to avoid the hesitation point from the first video you see). during that time it probably got pretty jacked up. any special way to clean it, MAF cleaner okay to clean it with? still got some from autozone, or should I hit up some brake/carb cleaner?
---
Any thoughts against Refirbished MAF sensors? Ive seen "MAF Meters" also.. They look the same as the sensors. This site I was looking at had them listed as two categories meters and sensors..

Murderbus

I am surprised I have gotten little feed back from this post :-P

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

There is a good reason - you have MM working with you already .

Do you know how rich it really is or not ? You do realise that 11.1 is as low as the stock sensor will read ?

Murderbus

I dont know how rich or lean it is running. I dont know how to read that kind of data yet and understand what I am looking at. Im still learning quite a lot it seems all the time about cars, I noticed that the COBB wasnt registering anything below 11, and it has been brought up to me that I should look for an aftermarket MAF sensor. I am not even sure if they exsist let alone if I would need one?

As far as I know he isnt, its just what he said. MM has only been aware of the situation since the 28th. He told me he was gonna mull over it that night and send me back a map in the morning and nothing ever came still over the weeks. I had sent him 2 e-mails since then asking him if there is anything additional that he may need from the logs. I havnt received 1 response from him, ill be able to talk to him tomorrow sure. But the guy told me he'd be gettin back to me and hasnt.

Anyways, mechanically I am trying to trouble shoot and find the problems on my own ahead of time to better the results and try to resolve any issues in between sessions. Who knows maybe my vacuum hoses are wrong? I have exchanged 7 data logs with him at this point, none of which have been addressed let alone even showed up with the data logs I have sent to MM. The issue you see in video 1, same issue every time, no matter the map given to me by MM. Ill talk it over with MM tomorrow. Been troubleshooting my *** off this weekend.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I'll try to get through this thread later this afternoon, but I will tell you one thing that might be an indicator - The Renesis can't be run without the MAF. If you are able to unplug the MAF and it will allow you to rev past 3800 RPM, then something very serious is going on.
Unplugging the MAF should immediately put the car in limp-mode.

Having been staring at your logs all week, all I can suggest is that your injectors are either not the sizes you think they are, are not installed in the positions you might think they are or are not wired correctly.
You mention in your submission that you have "RC 650cc injectors put in the P2 slot". Are these saturated or peak/hold injectors? Who did the wiring and how?

The main issue I see is that the logs you provide for the Service - especially the cruise - do not reflect, in ANY way, the logs you sent that correspond to the actions in this video. All of your open and closed loop logs show normal response, but your "driving" logs show something else.

CRO8TIA

I had a similar issue with my n/a stock 8 , it would fall on its nose when the engine was under load, as in hard accelerating , but was okay with light throttle. Turned out to be failing ignition and,the ground electrodes on both the trailing plugs had parted company from the plug itself .

After reading MM's reply, forget what I posted.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Aah. That is the limp mode. OK.



Your official list of mods reads:
But in reading your list above you mention:
It might have been worth your while to mention that in your mod list when you submitted for your base calibration.
As it says in the instructions:
As they say - "Garbage in, Garbage out."

Your entire custom tuning series to date is trash. You can go ahead and delete all of those calibrations and start over tomorrow.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Just for a bit of background:
I probably should have deduced from that conversation what was going on, but the whole process was so FUBAR at that point that I got overwhelmed.
BTW - The JSCSpeed link above no longer works. They do not appear to be listing the RC application for the RX-8 any longer. Probably for good reason.

You also failed to mention that you have a GReddy BOV vented to atmosphere. This will almost definitely not work well.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

Funny that people insist on upgrading the injectors on stock Greddy turbo installs . Just asking for this kind of problem when if they left it stock all would be just fine and dandy .

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, his is not, apparently, a stock GReddy in that it has an upgraded turbo of some sort.

That said, I do recommend upgrading the injectors right off the bat, but I have a very specific way of implementing that suggestion.
We all know that boost is addictive and it pays to get the injectors aspect of the tune out of the way before the install becomes more complicated.
Of course, this particular install was already complicated right from the beginning.

Murderbus

my injector set up.

Primary 2 injectors are replaced with RC 650cc injectors. The primary 1 injectors are completley out, and replaced with primary 2 380cc.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

OK. Well, that information will need to be reflected in your "11 Q's" tomorrow, though I can tell you that mixing those RCs in with stock secondaries may also present a problem. We will see if we can "normalize" the latencies.
I will need the latency numbers for those RCs, their tested flow as well as their impedance.

You will need a brand new base calibration (v4.0.0) to reflect the snafu with the primaries being different and you will need to collect the TWO basic logs from that. Like it says in the instructions NO WOT!!!

Murderbus

from the sounds of it I gotta un-fudge up my injectors...
I am gonna search for the information on the injectors. Any of the sites I have checked out that sell them have no information on latency, tested flow, or impedance. Ill continue to look.

When I bought the 2 RC's I also bought their plug & play clips that work with the OEM injector clips.
So how should I go about un-fudging my situation? Swap them all out with different injectors, not even bother with the RC brand injectors? Upgrade the Front & Rear secondaries to match with the 650cc P2s?

-Any recommendations on how I should approach this?

Murderbus

Alright this didnt take long at all actually,
They are saturated.

Here is the link.

http://www.rceng.com/Saturated-Injec...650-P32C6.aspx

Flow Rate - CC's:
650 CC's / MIN @ 43.5 PSI

Flow Rate - LB's:
62 LBS / HR @ 43.5 PSI

Resistance:
12.5 Ohms @ 68 F

Voltage:
8-15 Volts, nominal 13.5 Volts

Amperage:
1.0 Amps

Pressure:
Min 30 PSIG / Max 100 PSIG

Murderbus

I think I have finally found the source of my mistake. So here is what JSC (and other sites I found these same injectors on have the same paragraph) says that RC says lol...

"RC Engineering's top-feed fuel injectors are known for their quality and spot-on accuracy. These top-feed saturation fuel injectors for the 04-10 Mazda RX-8 are available in the 440cc, 550cc and 650cc sizes. The rotary Mazda RX-8 has a very unique fuel system consisting of 6 total fuel injectors at varying capacities. Each rotor functions with 3 dedicated fuel injectors, (2) two primary (designated P1 and P2) and a (1) one single secondary injector (designated S). Both S (secondary) factory injectors are 380cc capacity. The P1 (primary) factory injectors are 290cc, and the P2 (primary) injectors are 380cc capacity from the factory. Most RX-8 owners interested in getting more fuel into their rotary engine replace the two secondary ports with RC Engineering's injectors and plug the 380cc secondary and P2 injectors into the remaining ports. RC Engineering fuel injectors are only compatible with the 2 secondary injector ports on your RX-8. Designed for high-power RX-8 applications, RC 440cc, 550cc, and 650cc RX-8 fuel injectors offer increased fuel flow and direct plug-and-play installation into the factory RX-8 fuel rail. The injectors attach to your factory RX-8 wiring harness using the clips which are sold seperately below. All of the RC injectors will require ECU tuning for proper performance.

Note:
RC Engineering injectors can only replace the secondary injectors on your RX-8 and not the primary.
RC Enginerring injectors for the RX-8 are sold in sets of two (2)."

From what I understood at the time, (and maybe I am still wrong I dont know yet) but I only bought 2 of the injectors to replace only 2 of the yellows, which I should have bought 4 of them and replaced all the secondary yellows correct?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Though that would be optimal, simply installing them in the P2 position would have been better than what RC is recommending, which is completely wrong.

I still need to know what the latency is for that injector.

Murderbus

Here are the injector latency times for the SL4-0650: -@1
10v 1.08ms
11 0.86
12 0.69
13 0.54
14 0.41
15 0.31

ShellDude

iTrader: (12)

The stock injectors on my GReddy boosted 4AT are a little over 90% load at peak.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

From the factory, the 6-port Renesis has 2100cc of injector capacity. This is sufficient fuel for about 330 crank horsepower (approximately 280 - 300 at the wheels).
The 4-port has 1540cc of injector capacity. This is sufficient fuel for about 250 crank horsepower (approximately 210 - 230 at the wheels).

Murderbus

Wanted to post a follow up. I pulled out the RC's and sent all of my stock injectors to injector-rehab. installed them, minus the abundance of fuel I am getting (800cc secondaries, x1 720cc and x1 740cc primary) the car is still having the same issues as before.