priscilla ls1

If u understand that then what the hell are we arguing about
All I know Is what I learned in school and that is HP and Torque curves will always cross at 5252 rpm. To help put horsepower into perspective, imagine two engine that both make 300 ft. lbs. of torque One engine makes it at 3000 rpm and the other makes it at 6000 rpm. Which one makes more power? The one revving at 6000, because the same amount of torque is being used twice as fast. Gearing the engine down to the the same 3000 rpm will double the torque at the final drive making it 600 ft. lbs. If both engines had the same final drive, they would be able to do the exact same amount of work (300 ft. lbs. worth), but the 6000 rpm engine will do it in 1/2 the time.
And also the definition of 1 horsepower is the ability to do 33,000 pounds-feet of work in one minute.

therm8

But

3.06 3.24 = 9.9144 *340 = 3370.896
1.75 3.24 = 5.67*340 = 1927.8
1.00 3.24 = 3.24*340 = 1101.6
0.70 3.24 = 2.268*340 = 771.2


2004 RX-8 6mt
gear *final = overall gearing*T at peek= total T
3.76 4.44 16.6944 159 2654.4096
2.269 4.44 10.07436 159 1601.82324
1.645 4.44 7.3038 159 1161.3042
1.187 4.44 5.27028 159 837.97452
1 4.44 4.44 159 705.96
0.843 4.44 3.74292 159 595.12428

And that's straight from the factory. An LS1 just pulls and pulls, well into the 100's, even in the auto. As far as 1/4 mile distances are concerned, the suspension on the 8 is detrimental to good launches, while the F-body suspension just hooks and goes. This math mumbo jumbo doesn't match real world results. (this isn't even considering the 8 being overrated and the F-body being underrated)

priscilla ls1

Yeah I know about this I have been there, I will never top out the car as I am afraid I might kill myself. But for some reason the car will not stop pulling, even when I was up to 155 mph the car kept pulling?

zoom44

ahh its not the math mumbo jumbo that is in question. obviously ther are things left out. which even furthur enhances what im saying

just saying car X has has more Torque than car Y means very little- its about how it puts the power to the ground that matters.

This was never about if the 8 could beat LS1 powered F body. As you said one of the factors in getting power to the ground is the suspension. Priscilla brought up theF body i just was using it as an example of why T alone doesnt mean anything. Thanks for doing the calc with the other final drive- I said did the formula get that or just the trans am? yeah the LS1 vettes are very nice to stomp the pedal on also- my mom and her husband had one for awhile. i used to drive it sometimes.

and speaking of which Priscilla you brought up your Firebird and talked torque converters and stall etc. then you gave gears for the 6 mt on that car? i thought you had the AT because of the converter talk?

priscilla ls1

Hey look zoom44, I asked u if I was getting off topic and u did not say anything so I thought we were still talking about the same car, and yes the trans am is the same as a formula no dif. only that the formula is a racing version and the trans am is for show like the formula body is like 300lbs lighter then the trans am. ok!

zoom44

no it wasnt off topic i just would have used the 6mt gears instead.

priscilla ls1

How about instead of arguing at each other we help this guy out with his argument with the 350Z guy.
Now that we all are more educated with Tq and what it does and where it comes from lets look at the numbers ok.

350Z
3,225 lbs
287hp@6200rpms
274tq @4800rpms
1st Gear Ratio 3.794:1
2nd Gear 2.324:1
3rd 1.624:1
4th 1.271:1
5th 1:1
6th 0.794:1
Final Drive 3.538:1


RX-8
3,029 lbs
247hp@8500rpms
159tq @5500rpms
1st Gear Ratio 3.760:1
2nd Gear 2.269:1
3rd 1.645:1
4th 1.187:1
5th 1.1
6th 0.843:1
Final Drive 4.444:1
Now I am going to need time to work on somthing, for a good argument. In the mean time maybe anyone else can help and think of somthing I Am not a miracle worker and I am not very good in math, I just want to help.

Sigma

I did all those numbers for the RX-8 vs the 350Z back on the First Page.

priscilla ls1

Yeah I know, but I was just putting this out for ppl to get back on track.
Plus u missed a bunch of stuff like the Z's gearing and the weight of the 2 cars. I am just giving more to work with and to show the hole picture.

zoom44

we were never off track and if you say that once more i swear i will delete it. second we were not argueing . i only used the fbody as an example since you owned one. it showed that gearing ,weight and Torque together are whats important and that the T number alone is nothing. That is answer the OPs "how much T matters" just one more time this time without any other info and ill ask a very simple question:

A. 80.0 ft.-lb
B. 159 ft-lb
C. 200 ft-lb
D. 340 ft-lb
E. 1050-1350 lb-ft

Which vehicle will win the 1/4?

priscilla ls1

U know I can't answer this question with out knowing the Hp, gearing and weight of the cars. I really don't know where u are going with this? But now that I think about it I would chose answer A, because with Tq that low the CC must be around 1000 like a motorcycle. and I think the motorcycle will win the 1/4.


This sounds like argueing to me^^^. threats of delition.
Dude I never said Hp and weight were not a factor, and u know that. So what r u complaning about?

zoom44

thats just one of the tings you said. ill give a clue- the 50 ft lb one i listed doesnt make that until 9200 rpm. is that low end torque?

here is another
but when i said ill lunch at 6k you thought that was crazy because i wasnt launching at my torque peak. which is it?

you cant know with knowing about the cars? but you asked this?

and said weight doesnt matter



ievery post of mine int he last 2 pages has been to prove the same point which i have said over and over again- that torque alone doesnt matter and its the T to weight ratio and the gearing that matters. which you seem to understand but for some reason dont understand that its what i am saying.

priscilla ls1

Low end torque is just that the cars peak Tq is achieved lower in the RPM's, that is all, and the weight, I was wrong ok! My car is not 480 more then the RX-8 it was like 200 more. And I was talking about beating a lower end Tq car at the line and just at the line no where else. And on that second quote U posted I was joking with u, Thought u knew that with the--> :p <--face.

guy321

Kiss and make up! :D

zoom44

just talking about at the line right?

the 50ftlb at 9200 is the ninja. do you think the low end T car will beat it off the line?

priscilla ls1

DUDE! u are forgetting gearing, weight, and Hp. The combination of these four factor win races.


No Way! Dude is old enough to be my dad! :D

Dark8

Where's that diesel TDI Rabbit when you need it.....

zoom44

priscilla is priceless. cant sustain her own comments so suggests i am forgetting my own point. priceless.

so you are saying then that the comment about lowend T getting off the line first is innaccurate? tooo generalized?

going to the market. be back later

priscilla ls1

But dude I was comparing the low end Tq to an RX-8. not a bike! I understand your point, but bikes don't need much Tq they weigh nothing, but cars do they weigh somthing.

guy321

yall need 2 b lookin @ pwr 2 weight ratio.

But given similar power to weight ratios, the one who develops higher HP quicker (the one whith more torque will usually develop power at lower RPMS) and will be quicker from a stop off the line.. or something like that. I know nothing about cars.

zoom44

yep and the area under the curve not peak power.

mjcampb

I've enjoyed reading this educating thread and I know this thread is pretty much over, but it would have been interesting to involve a tractor as an example of low hp. I've got relatives who are farmers and I remember them saying that their tractors have maybe about 100 some odd hp, so it has got to be the gearing allows them to do the things they do (they are pretty heavy). I would imagine they've got high torque as well, but my relatives never mentioned that. They had both gas and diesel machines. Obviously, this subject is not my strong point.

Sigma

Actually on the end pf Page 3, beginning of Page 4, tractors were brought up. Just the kind that pull trailers, not the kind that does farmwork.

Your average semi-truck is doing only about 320hp, but is more than capable of pulling 60,000lbs. They also do about 1100ft/lb of torque. But even if you made a car with those specs, it still couldn't pull 60,000lbs, no matter how much you beefed up the frame. Because, like you said, the gearing just wouldn't be there. Trucks have 18-speed transmissions in them just to make sure they're multiplying the hell out of that force as much as possible the whole way up the speedometer.

mjcampb

Yeah, sorry, I was really thinking about farm machines. It's amazing that you can get wheels that big in diameter turning from such a small axle by comparison. Now that's torque.