Throttle Body By-Pass Value discussion
05-24-2013, 03:02 PM
#26
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What does me being turbo have to do with anything? My intake temps under normal driving conditions are basically the same as NA. You are wrong.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 05-24-2013 at 04:51 PM.
05-24-2013, 04:43 PM
#27
Having done this mod myself I feel like I could give a reasonable response to all this debate.
There are a few "benefits" of this mod, though nothing that can really be viewed as too significant do deem this mod "amazing"
Additionally, there are also drawbacks that must be taken into heavy consideration depending on your geographic location. Lets go over the few things that initially come to mind about this mod..
1) Temperature:
"OMG its so much cooler I got like 5-vtec-whp from it yo"
First of all, just stop. No you didnt get any hp from this. Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature. Not to mention I am rather sure the LIM heats up the air way more than the throttle body supposedly does. There is a very dangerous risk associated with this mod however; in cold/winter climates you risk "icing" the throttle plate and throttle body. Not something to joke around with by any means.
2) Power:
There's no whp or even crank hp difference with this mod. While no I do not have concrete "proof" of that statement, I am sure that if there was power associated with this mod someone would have produced dyno evidence in the last decade of this cars existence. So please, stop saying it does add power. Beating grandma's Toyota Camry isn't proof, either.
3) Visual Appeal:
Some individuals, like myself, wanted to make the engine bay just a little tidier and get rid of some hoses. I was in the middle of getting my motor replaced when doing this mod, and I elected to run a shorter hose from the outlet at the back of the block straight to the inlet where it goes to the return system on the front cover. Most people wont notice this effort or mod, but it certainly means less hose running around and less mess if i have to remove the throttle body for any reason. For some people who are going the whole nine yards in creating a cleaner looking engine bay, that is one of the hoses that can be altered to contribute to a cleaner looking compartment.
So at the end of the day, the throttle body bypass can be classified as a "out of boredom" mod. Live in an area that never sees freezing temperatures? Go for it. Want a "cleaner" engine bay? Go for it. Don't want to spill coolant if you ever need to remove the TB? Go for it. Want to get another 5whp for putting a brass barb fitting and hose clamps to join two hoses? Well in your case, lakemod.
That's my contribution to this thread.
There are a few "benefits" of this mod, though nothing that can really be viewed as too significant do deem this mod "amazing"
Additionally, there are also drawbacks that must be taken into heavy consideration depending on your geographic location. Lets go over the few things that initially come to mind about this mod..
1) Temperature:
"OMG its so much cooler I got like 5-vtec-whp from it yo"
First of all, just stop. No you didnt get any hp from this. Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature. Not to mention I am rather sure the LIM heats up the air way more than the throttle body supposedly does. There is a very dangerous risk associated with this mod however; in cold/winter climates you risk "icing" the throttle plate and throttle body. Not something to joke around with by any means.
2) Power:
There's no whp or even crank hp difference with this mod. While no I do not have concrete "proof" of that statement, I am sure that if there was power associated with this mod someone would have produced dyno evidence in the last decade of this cars existence. So please, stop saying it does add power. Beating grandma's Toyota Camry isn't proof, either.
3) Visual Appeal:
Some individuals, like myself, wanted to make the engine bay just a little tidier and get rid of some hoses. I was in the middle of getting my motor replaced when doing this mod, and I elected to run a shorter hose from the outlet at the back of the block straight to the inlet where it goes to the return system on the front cover. Most people wont notice this effort or mod, but it certainly means less hose running around and less mess if i have to remove the throttle body for any reason. For some people who are going the whole nine yards in creating a cleaner looking engine bay, that is one of the hoses that can be altered to contribute to a cleaner looking compartment.
So at the end of the day, the throttle body bypass can be classified as a "out of boredom" mod. Live in an area that never sees freezing temperatures? Go for it. Want a "cleaner" engine bay? Go for it. Don't want to spill coolant if you ever need to remove the TB? Go for it. Want to get another 5whp for putting a brass barb fitting and hose clamps to join two hoses? Well in your case, lakemod.
That's my contribution to this thread.
05-25-2013, 12:38 PM
#28
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Having done this mod myself I feel like I could give a reasonable response to all this debate.
There are a few "benefits" of this mod, though nothing that can really be viewed as too significant do deem this mod "amazing"
Additionally, there are also drawbacks that must be taken into heavy consideration depending on your geographic location. Lets go over the few things that initially come to mind about this mod..
1) Temperature:
"OMG its so much cooler I got like 5-vtec-whp from it yo"
First of all, just stop. No you didnt get any hp from this. Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature. Not to mention I am rather sure the LIM heats up the air way more than the throttle body supposedly does. There is a very dangerous risk associated with this mod however; in cold/winter climates you risk "icing" the throttle plate and throttle body. Not something to joke around with by any means.
2) Power:
There's no whp or even crank hp difference with this mod. While no I do not have concrete "proof" of that statement, I am sure that if there was power associated with this mod someone would have produced dyno evidence in the last decade of this cars existence. So please, stop saying it does add power. Beating grandma's Toyota Camry isn't proof, either.
3) Visual Appeal:
Some individuals, like myself, wanted to make the engine bay just a little tidier and get rid of some hoses. I was in the middle of getting my motor replaced when doing this mod, and I elected to run a shorter hose from the outlet at the back of the block straight to the inlet where it goes to the return system on the front cover. Most people wont notice this effort or mod, but it certainly means less hose running around and less mess if i have to remove the throttle body for any reason. For some people who are going the whole nine yards in creating a cleaner looking engine bay, that is one of the hoses that can be altered to contribute to a cleaner looking compartment.
So at the end of the day, the throttle body bypass can be classified as a "out of boredom" mod. Live in an area that never sees freezing temperatures? Go for it. Want a "cleaner" engine bay? Go for it. Don't want to spill coolant if you ever need to remove the TB? Go for it. Want to get another 5whp for putting a brass barb fitting and hose clamps to join two hoses? Well in your case, lakemod.
That's my contribution to this thread.
There are a few "benefits" of this mod, though nothing that can really be viewed as too significant do deem this mod "amazing"
Additionally, there are also drawbacks that must be taken into heavy consideration depending on your geographic location. Lets go over the few things that initially come to mind about this mod..
1) Temperature:
"OMG its so much cooler I got like 5-vtec-whp from it yo"
First of all, just stop. No you didnt get any hp from this. Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature. Not to mention I am rather sure the LIM heats up the air way more than the throttle body supposedly does. There is a very dangerous risk associated with this mod however; in cold/winter climates you risk "icing" the throttle plate and throttle body. Not something to joke around with by any means.
2) Power:
There's no whp or even crank hp difference with this mod. While no I do not have concrete "proof" of that statement, I am sure that if there was power associated with this mod someone would have produced dyno evidence in the last decade of this cars existence. So please, stop saying it does add power. Beating grandma's Toyota Camry isn't proof, either.
3) Visual Appeal:
Some individuals, like myself, wanted to make the engine bay just a little tidier and get rid of some hoses. I was in the middle of getting my motor replaced when doing this mod, and I elected to run a shorter hose from the outlet at the back of the block straight to the inlet where it goes to the return system on the front cover. Most people wont notice this effort or mod, but it certainly means less hose running around and less mess if i have to remove the throttle body for any reason. For some people who are going the whole nine yards in creating a cleaner looking engine bay, that is one of the hoses that can be altered to contribute to a cleaner looking compartment.
So at the end of the day, the throttle body bypass can be classified as a "out of boredom" mod. Live in an area that never sees freezing temperatures? Go for it. Want a "cleaner" engine bay? Go for it. Don't want to spill coolant if you ever need to remove the TB? Go for it. Want to get another 5whp for putting a brass barb fitting and hose clamps to join two hoses? Well in your case, lakemod.
That's my contribution to this thread.
"Yes your throttle body will be slightly cooler, but it wont make much of any difference since the air passes through the throttle body so quickly that it doesn't really have time to affect the intake temperature."
I would have to disagree. Look at a turbo set up... Cool air passes through the turbo and this is a small heat source. Air is forced by way faster then N/A could produce. The heat is created from the turbine not because its pressurized.
Think about how fast the air is forced though a small area of heat. The air gets so hot you need an inter cooler to utilize the air better for performance.
This is the exact same thing. It is just on a way smaller scale. Even if it gets you .000000000000001 crank HP it is still a benefit. This will get better with more supporting mods. Say it gave you .001 hp. Then you add an exhaust. Now that mod is giving you .01 hp. Then you add a good intake. Now your getting more from the exhaust and the TB mod. You might even get .1 hp from the TB mod.
I truly be leave that the temps do raise from the TB. You have a 200 degree ring of heat around your air flow.
If you didn't do it you would be losing out on helping your other mods. We all know, even .25hp matters with a small engine. There is no proof because how small the result is. But it is a good result and not bad. Meaning there is no reason not to do this unless you live in cold climates.
05-25-2013, 01:25 PM
#30
Turbochargers get several hundred degrees hotter than the throttle body under normal operating conditions, so I wouldn't quite call a turbocharger a good comparison to the throttle body.
Also if I am not mistaken, compressing air raises the temperature. Pressure, volume, and temperature are all directly proportional. So an intercooler is needed for not just the turbo which is several hundred degrees hotter that is heating the air but also because physics/thermodynamics states that the increase in air pressure of a defined volume of air will raise the air temperature.
Also if I am not mistaken, compressing air raises the temperature. Pressure, volume, and temperature are all directly proportional. So an intercooler is needed for not just the turbo which is several hundred degrees hotter that is heating the air but also because physics/thermodynamics states that the increase in air pressure of a defined volume of air will raise the air temperature.
05-26-2013, 11:18 AM
#33
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Here is proof that it works on the LS1's. Gives them HP gains on the dyno.
Throttle body coolant hose bypass: LT1?? - LS1TECH
But yeah we have a 13b. The exact same application doesn't apply to us
.
I can show proven results for many different engines. Even a Honda guy that did put temp sensors and showed a 30 degree difference. With before and after results.
Just because you think it doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Show some info on where/why you think its a waste of time. I not sitting here saying I think. Yes I don't know what the gain is but there is a gain.
If the ls1 gets 7-9 hp "proven" and a Honda gets a 30 degree drop in temp "proven". Then I have a guy saying I think its a retard mod "not proven". Who are you going to listen to?
The point of all this is, will the TB mod give you a gain? YES it will give you a gain but we don't know how much with the 13b.
At the same time all this is a waste of time. I could have a dyno video of the 13b getting 4hp gain from the TB mod and you guys would still disagree with proof in front of you.
Here is a dyno sheet of a ls1 gaining hp from this mod.
http://ws6.com/mod-8.htm
Nature of the beast
Straight out of the guys mouth.
"Everyone, including myself, thought this mod would be almost useless. Boy were we wrong. It is a noticeable gain, but again, due to the low percentage, I can't feel it. Oh well."
Throttle body coolant hose bypass: LT1?? - LS1TECH
But yeah we have a 13b. The exact same application doesn't apply to us
.I can show proven results for many different engines. Even a Honda guy that did put temp sensors and showed a 30 degree difference. With before and after results.
Just because you think it doesn't work doesn't mean it doesn't work.
Show some info on where/why you think its a waste of time. I not sitting here saying I think. Yes I don't know what the gain is but there is a gain.
If the ls1 gets 7-9 hp "proven" and a Honda gets a 30 degree drop in temp "proven". Then I have a guy saying I think its a retard mod "not proven". Who are you going to listen to?
The point of all this is, will the TB mod give you a gain? YES it will give you a gain but we don't know how much with the 13b.
At the same time all this is a waste of time. I could have a dyno video of the 13b getting 4hp gain from the TB mod and you guys would still disagree with proof in front of you.
Here is a dyno sheet of a ls1 gaining hp from this mod.
http://ws6.com/mod-8.htm
Nature of the beast
Straight out of the guys mouth.
"Everyone, including myself, thought this mod would be almost useless. Boy were we wrong. It is a noticeable gain, but again, due to the low percentage, I can't feel it. Oh well."
Last edited by jayrerickson; 05-26-2013 at 11:28 AM.
05-26-2013, 12:04 PM
#35
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I can prove that it works for many many different engines. Take a look at 6crew.com. They show proof for other mazda engines.
Like I said, I can show proof on how this works for many different engines, just not the 8.
And because there is no proof for the 8 you guys think its a stupid mod. That alone sounds stupid.
05-26-2013, 12:16 PM
#36
it is only stupid when you don't consider (or in your case incorrectly consider) the physics behind the fluid flow characteristics of the renesis.
First off, for those who are taking the IAT temps before and after this mod .... they do realize that the IAT is coming from the MAF right? ... which sits BEFORE the TB ....
Second off ... consider that airflow through a vacuum does a funny thing ... it creates a small film of air on the inner wall of the tube .... so while you might be decreasing the temps of the thin layer of air on the walls of the intake tube ... it is not affecting the air in the middle of the tube (the fastest moving air, and the air that is reaching the engine first) much at all.
Third ... whatever temps that you are reducing at the TB, is regained as it passes through the UIM, then to the LIM.
This isn't a piston engine where the TB leads to a short intake runner then to the combustion chamber.
First off, for those who are taking the IAT temps before and after this mod .... they do realize that the IAT is coming from the MAF right? ... which sits BEFORE the TB ....
Second off ... consider that airflow through a vacuum does a funny thing ... it creates a small film of air on the inner wall of the tube .... so while you might be decreasing the temps of the thin layer of air on the walls of the intake tube ... it is not affecting the air in the middle of the tube (the fastest moving air, and the air that is reaching the engine first) much at all.
Third ... whatever temps that you are reducing at the TB, is regained as it passes through the UIM, then to the LIM.
This isn't a piston engine where the TB leads to a short intake runner then to the combustion chamber.
Last edited by paimon.soror; 05-26-2013 at 12:19 PM.
05-26-2013, 12:20 PM
#37
out of all those cars, which ones have motors fed by a metal intake manifold? correct me if im wrong but both have plastic intake manifolds where most of our manifold is metal (plastic that connects to a metal lower manifold that gets much hotter being bolted into the side of the block)
If you are SO confident this mod increases HP, why dont you dyno your car before and after to prove us wrong?
If you are SO confident this mod increases HP, why dont you dyno your car before and after to prove us wrong?
05-26-2013, 12:21 PM
#38
just to be more clear ... i dont want to discourage you from gathering data. I am just saying that you cannot compare this engine to any other engine in regards to small gains obtained from what are nothing more then "i am bored" mods.
The only reason I would actually do this mod is if I have a TB spacer after the TB that is spraying nitrous in an attempt not to heat up the spacer plate (which depending on the nitrous setup you have, could actually be beneficial) ..... other than that, not much to be gained.
The only reason I would actually do this mod is if I have a TB spacer after the TB that is spraying nitrous in an attempt not to heat up the spacer plate (which depending on the nitrous setup you have, could actually be beneficial) ..... other than that, not much to be gained.
05-26-2013, 01:12 PM
#40
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The problem is, you guys are thinking I'm saying you will get big gain from this.
My only point is, you will gain something from it. Even if its a half a HP, it is still a positive gain.
With ANY mod that shows a positive gain, is a mod everyone should consider.
Its like filling your tires with a lighter gas. Can you prove that it works, NO. The only thing you can do is try to take time off a run. If it gave me .01 faster on my time would I keep doing it, HELL YEAH.
The whole point of this is will the TB mod help? YES, its up to you to decide if it is worth the small gain. But in the end, it has a positive effect and not a negative.
The whole point of this thread.
My only point is, you will gain something from it. Even if its a half a HP, it is still a positive gain.
With ANY mod that shows a positive gain, is a mod everyone should consider.
Its like filling your tires with a lighter gas. Can you prove that it works, NO. The only thing you can do is try to take time off a run. If it gave me .01 faster on my time would I keep doing it, HELL YEAH.
The whole point of this is will the TB mod help? YES, its up to you to decide if it is worth the small gain. But in the end, it has a positive effect and not a negative.
The whole point of this thread.
05-26-2013, 02:35 PM
#42
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it is only stupid when you don't consider (or in your case incorrectly consider) the physics behind the fluid flow characteristics of the renesis.
First off, for those who are taking the IAT temps before and after this mod .... they do realize that the IAT is coming from the MAF right? ... which sits BEFORE the TB ....
Second off ... consider that airflow through a vacuum does a funny thing ... it creates a small film of air on the inner wall of the tube .... so while you might be decreasing the temps of the thin layer of air on the walls of the intake tube ... it is not affecting the air in the middle of the tube (the fastest moving air, and the air that is reaching the engine first) much at all.
Third ... whatever temps that you are reducing at the TB, is regained as it passes through the UIM, then to the LIM.
This isn't a piston engine where the TB leads to a short intake runner then to the combustion chamber.
First off, for those who are taking the IAT temps before and after this mod .... they do realize that the IAT is coming from the MAF right? ... which sits BEFORE the TB ....
Second off ... consider that airflow through a vacuum does a funny thing ... it creates a small film of air on the inner wall of the tube .... so while you might be decreasing the temps of the thin layer of air on the walls of the intake tube ... it is not affecting the air in the middle of the tube (the fastest moving air, and the air that is reaching the engine first) much at all.
Third ... whatever temps that you are reducing at the TB, is regained as it passes through the UIM, then to the LIM.
This isn't a piston engine where the TB leads to a short intake runner then to the combustion chamber.
I highly doubt a small film of air is going to be even close to a 200 degree ring of heat. Heat radiates pushing away from the source. This is not a vacuum line with no heat source.
I understand what you are saying but everything changes when you add a 200 degree ring of heat. Now you have heat trying to escape 360 around. Pushing heat to the center of the tube. The only film of air thats going to be there is hot *** air, heat that is being radiated from the TB. Which will change the air flow/dynamics all together. Cool air will try to go around the heat source as the heat is pushing it away alone with bringing heat with it as with any heat source will radiate heat.
The intake is way I say you will get less performance from it (but do still get some). Even if the air temp in the camber is down by 1 degree, it is still a positive effect.
05-26-2013, 02:51 PM
#43
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I read the dyno chart , but it was for a LT-1 big v8?. It would be cool to see a dyno chart to compare. It would seem that after warm up everything under the hood is heat soaked. The morei read the more it gets complicated. I did this mod and reversed it because I really didn't feel any difference ad when I put my hand on the TB it was still too hot to touch, so I don't get the debate at all unless we have a dyno for an 8 to compare with the LT-1. I am leaving mine back in the stock position.
05-26-2013, 03:18 PM
#44
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One with out the mod, one with and one with it heat soaked.
Even with the big v8 getting 7whp, he stats "it is still not noticeable".
With that said, I don't think you will ever notice any gain with any application/car with the butt. The results are to low to notice it. But is there.
Last edited by jayrerickson; 05-26-2013 at 03:21 PM.
05-28-2013, 10:09 AM
#47
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I have asked Zoom to look into that. It appears that with the new member changes, the ability for someone to delete their first post has been removed. (unintentionally)
I moved all these posts out of the DIY thread, since arguing about the reasoning doesn't belong there and it was beginning to dominate the thread. I don't feel justified in simply deleting the debate.
I moved all these posts out of the DIY thread, since arguing about the reasoning doesn't belong there and it was beginning to dominate the thread. I don't feel justified in simply deleting the debate.
