Synthetic Oil and the Renesis Engine
11-28-2003, 11:27 PM
#151
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One of my technicains worked on racing platform RX-7s for a couple of years, so out of everyone he is the guy I trust the most about failures.
I do alot of start/stop and go type driving in my RX-8 and would like to take advantage of the protection properties of synthetic. However, I don't want to take a risk ruining my warranty or ruining my engine if there is some danger in using synth. All I want to see is a little proof and a clear cut answer why it can't be used.
I'm thinking about just forgetting both dino and synth and just using the big vat of peanut oil I have sitting in my turkey fryer outside my house left over from Thanksgiving. What do you think the viscosity or API rating would be for that?
11-29-2003, 08:17 PM
#152
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My tech has told me stories about engines blowing up and things like that. Your normal run of the mill racing stuff. He has seen rotors come apart inside the engine and apex seals come apart, but that is under EXTREME conditions. Something a normal driver will never do, even if he races it.
And using synthetic oil wont void the warranty. Its just a slim possibilty that if the engine flakes and mazda says it was caused by the synthetic oil, they make you float the bill. I have never once seen or heard of Mazda saying " Oh, you caused the engine to fail because you didnt have the recommended oil in the engine....heres your bill for the warranty work we did " - all I want to do is give you mazda point of view. Most of the time as long as there is oil in the engine mazda doesnt care. If your running like 0W racing oil, then you got a problem, but I dont foresee any warranty issues coming up because you used synethic oil.
And I dont know what it isnt in the manual. Its in the service manuals and any rotary tech can verify it. I will talk to my tech rep about it and see what he says. It might have been an oversight and there could be a recall on the manuals (which they did on the tributes in regards to leaving a page out about safety seats). I will check and get back to you.
One last time....
Its recommended to use the 5W-20. Synethic oil MAY cause warranty issues if something major happens, but I seriously doubt it will ever be an issue.
So dont fret it fellas. Oil is oil. Keep in the engine and there wont be problems. That should solve the debate! KEEP OIL IN THE CAR, YOU WONT HAVE PROBLEMS! LOL (If only it were that easy)
How about this, I will make it my personal mission to solve this debate.
Give me some time and I will ease your fears.
- Snyder
PS - and remeber it burns 1QT per 600 miles. lol
And using synthetic oil wont void the warranty. Its just a slim possibilty that if the engine flakes and mazda says it was caused by the synthetic oil, they make you float the bill. I have never once seen or heard of Mazda saying " Oh, you caused the engine to fail because you didnt have the recommended oil in the engine....heres your bill for the warranty work we did " - all I want to do is give you mazda point of view. Most of the time as long as there is oil in the engine mazda doesnt care. If your running like 0W racing oil, then you got a problem, but I dont foresee any warranty issues coming up because you used synethic oil.
And I dont know what it isnt in the manual. Its in the service manuals and any rotary tech can verify it. I will talk to my tech rep about it and see what he says. It might have been an oversight and there could be a recall on the manuals (which they did on the tributes in regards to leaving a page out about safety seats). I will check and get back to you.
One last time....
Its recommended to use the 5W-20. Synethic oil MAY cause warranty issues if something major happens, but I seriously doubt it will ever be an issue.
So dont fret it fellas. Oil is oil. Keep in the engine and there wont be problems. That should solve the debate! KEEP OIL IN THE CAR, YOU WONT HAVE PROBLEMS! LOL (If only it were that easy)
How about this, I will make it my personal mission to solve this debate.
Give me some time and I will ease your fears. - Snyder
PS - and remeber it burns 1QT per 600 miles. lol
11-30-2003, 12:15 AM
#153
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Just stirring the pot, don't mind me.
AMSOIL synthetic oils dramatically outperform conventional petroleum motor oils. They reduce friction, heat and wear for maximum power, performance and efficiency. In addition, AMSOIL synthetic oil resists high temperature burn-off, chemical breakdown and sludging which keeps engines cleaner. It's outstanding low temperarure fluidity provides fast, dependable winter starts and immediate startup protection. The result: reduced automotive maintenance and repair. AMSOIL Synthetic Oils exceed the most demanding world-wide performance standards and meet warranty requirements for all domestic and imported passenger cars, both turbo-charged and non turbo-charged. Up to 35,000-mile or 1-year oil drain intervals.
Mixing AMSOIL With Other Oils
AMSOIL synthetic oil is fully compatible with conventional petroleum oils, so you may feel free to top them off with petroleum based oils or top off petroleum based oils with AMSOIL. Howevever, keep in mind that mixing AMSOIL with other oils will reduce its effectiveness and will shorten oil drain intervals. Also, be sure to only mix like viscosity grades.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMSOIL Material Safety Data Sheet Date Issued/Revised: June 18, 2003
Supersedes: June 12, 2003
AMSOIL Product Code .................................................. ........................... ASL
Product Label Name...................... 100% SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL, SAE 5W-30
Product Use............................................... ......................... LUBRICATING OIL
FLAMMABILITY PROPERTIES: Flash Point ........................................ 442°F(228°C)
Method .......................................COC ASTM D-92
LFL/UFL ........................................Not Determined
Auto-ignition Temperature ...............Not Determined
Mixing AMSOIL With Other Oils
AMSOIL synthetic oil is fully compatible with conventional petroleum oils, so you may feel free to top them off with petroleum based oils or top off petroleum based oils with AMSOIL. Howevever, keep in mind that mixing AMSOIL with other oils will reduce its effectiveness and will shorten oil drain intervals. Also, be sure to only mix like viscosity grades.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMSOIL Material Safety Data Sheet Date Issued/Revised: June 18, 2003
Supersedes: June 12, 2003
AMSOIL Product Code .................................................. ........................... ASL
Product Label Name...................... 100% SYNTHETIC MOTOR OIL, SAE 5W-30
Product Use............................................... ......................... LUBRICATING OIL
FLAMMABILITY PROPERTIES: Flash Point ........................................ 442°F(228°C)
Method .......................................COC ASTM D-92
LFL/UFL ........................................Not Determined
Auto-ignition Temperature ...............Not Determined
http://www.americansyntheticoil.com/pdf/asl.pdf
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer's Name: Castrol Heavy Duty Lubricants Inc.
SAE Grades 5W20, 5W30, 10W30, 10W40,
FLASH POINT & METHOD: Min. ASTM D-92 C.O.C. ºC, (ºF.) AUTO 204(400)/227(440)
IGNITION TEMPERATURE:Not Determined
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flashpoints are close, so what's really the difference in regards to burn off properties.
11-30-2003, 06:41 PM
#157
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Originally posted by syntrix
SnyderMazz:
That's the problem, mazda has not provided this documentation to any owners as part of any documentation yet!
SnyderMazz:
That's the problem, mazda has not provided this documentation to any owners as part of any documentation yet!
12-01-2003, 07:47 AM
#158
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fyi, over here, most of the mazda owners, i mean the 8s.. are using fully synthetic.....which is recommended ........??????
Last edited by Daverx; 12-03-2003 at 10:05 PM.
12-01-2003, 12:56 PM
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This is an ongoing debate lol I dont think this will ever end. I talked to my rotary tech today and flat out asked him " Why dont they [mazda] want you to use synthetic in the -8s?"- this is how he explained it to me.
A brief class on the lubrication system...its not detailed so bear with me, because Im at work and cant go into the whole thing lol
Basically, the oil sprayers spray small amounts of oil onto the rotor itself to keep it lubricated. Some of that oil gets burned off, thats why the engine burns oil. Now, this will cause a debate and (Im going to stress this) NOT SAYING ITS A FACT ITS A POSSIBILITY. But, synthetic might actually mess with the O2 sensors and cat since the oil is burning up and has a different compound than regular oil. There is a possibilty to why they dont want people to use synthetic. I was also told that synthetic oil doenst add any HP or help the engine create less friction with the rotaries from his experience (my tech). He doesnt see the point to spending more money on synthetic when it just burns up anyways. I have to say I agree with him on that one. Frankly, I dont think it really matters either way. Mazda says not to, but my techs say they dont think synthetic will really hurt anything (NOTE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL FROM MAZDA, JUST A PERSONAL OPINION). Just remeber Mazda recommends 5W-20.
A brief class on the lubrication system...its not detailed so bear with me, because Im at work and cant go into the whole thing lol
Basically, the oil sprayers spray small amounts of oil onto the rotor itself to keep it lubricated. Some of that oil gets burned off, thats why the engine burns oil. Now, this will cause a debate and (Im going to stress this) NOT SAYING ITS A FACT ITS A POSSIBILITY. But, synthetic might actually mess with the O2 sensors and cat since the oil is burning up and has a different compound than regular oil. There is a possibilty to why they dont want people to use synthetic. I was also told that synthetic oil doenst add any HP or help the engine create less friction with the rotaries from his experience (my tech). He doesnt see the point to spending more money on synthetic when it just burns up anyways. I have to say I agree with him on that one. Frankly, I dont think it really matters either way. Mazda says not to, but my techs say they dont think synthetic will really hurt anything (NOTE THAT IS NOT OFFICIAL FROM MAZDA, JUST A PERSONAL OPINION). Just remeber Mazda recommends 5W-20.
12-01-2003, 02:26 PM
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Mazda Driver's Guide #4
Last, but not least, the promotional stuff on the back of this card.
Note the Part No. 9999-92-RX8D2-04 if anyone is interested in getting this. your dealer should get it for you for FREE.
Note the Part No. 9999-92-RX8D2-04 if anyone is interested in getting this. your dealer should get it for you for FREE.
12-01-2003, 03:58 PM
#165
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Originally posted by syntrix
Great scans TybeeRX-8!!!
Am I the only person that did not get this manual when I purchased my car?
Great scans TybeeRX-8!!!
Am I the only person that did not get this manual when I purchased my car?
12-01-2003, 05:23 PM
#166
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How come I get a feeling that even with the proof in writing, this debate isnt going to end lol I didnt even think about that book. I believe are book is a little different, but it basically says all the same stuff.
12-01-2003, 09:51 PM
#167
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Originally posted by SnyderMazz
How come I get a feeling that even with the proof in writing, this debate isnt going to end lol I didnt even think about that book. I believe are book is a little different, but it basically says all the same stuff.
How come I get a feeling that even with the proof in writing, this debate isnt going to end lol I didnt even think about that book. I believe are book is a little different, but it basically says all the same stuff.
Do you mean some brochures to pass out, or official documentation now provided in the sale of an RX8?
It's still not "proof in writing" until Mazda notifies all owners of the vehicle. I did ask about me being the "only one to not receive it", but there was some sarcasm attached to that.
I'll state it again.... every owner is provided with documenation from Mazda. The closest thing to an oil spec provided at the time of purchase mentions nothing about synthetics, just the weight and grade.
Until Mazda notifies owners with a campaign, then "officially", you can run what Mazda told you to run.... and that COULD include synthetics.
I for one, have been running dino 5w-20 since day one, and plan on running it for a long time. However, there actually are people that have bought the car and have never seen the above brocure, and they will never visit this forum, or the dealer in their life!!!!!
So until Mazda notifies every owner officially, then they have not told you not to run synth. But from the documentation above, you can clearly see that they do NOT recommend it!
You make the call, just keep all the info in mind, and a call to MNAO might help
Here's their email form:http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/emailMazda.action
12-02-2003, 05:04 PM
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Ok this is going to come off as rude, but why is there such a big deal about this? Why would you want to waste extra money on an oil that is going to burn off anyways? Writen proof is availble to me, because I do work at a dealership. If you want writen proof then go to your dealer and ask to see the techincal highlights manual and look at it yourself. The oil cap says " GF-3 5W-20 " - it doenst say " snythetic " anywhere, so I would assume that means just use 5W-20.
Why do you have to have it writing? I just dont see the issue with this is all. I can give you 15 salespeople, 14 mechanics, 5 service consultants, 2 tech reps, and everyone on the Mazda Techincal Hotline to verify that Mazda does not recommend synthetic oil. If you doubt me, call your dealership and ask them. If they say otherwise, tell me what dealership you called and I will personally call them and get thier reasoning.
Its a big deal for nothing. I say if people who use synthetic oil want to waste there money for no difference whatsoever in HP or less friction, go ahead. Its not my wallet lol
Im an *** today, sorry, its been a bad day. I needed to vent
Why do you have to have it writing? I just dont see the issue with this is all. I can give you 15 salespeople, 14 mechanics, 5 service consultants, 2 tech reps, and everyone on the Mazda Techincal Hotline to verify that Mazda does not recommend synthetic oil. If you doubt me, call your dealership and ask them. If they say otherwise, tell me what dealership you called and I will personally call them and get thier reasoning.
Its a big deal for nothing. I say if people who use synthetic oil want to waste there money for no difference whatsoever in HP or less friction, go ahead. Its not my wallet lol
Im an *** today, sorry, its been a bad day. I needed to vent
12-02-2003, 05:26 PM
#169
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Originally posted by SnyderMazz
Ok this is going to come off as rude, but why is there such a big deal about this? Why would you want to waste extra money on an oil that is going to burn off anyways?
Ok this is going to come off as rude, but why is there such a big deal about this? Why would you want to waste extra money on an oil that is going to burn off anyways?
This is going to come off as rude also, but what an incredibly stupid thing to say!Maybe the engine oil has other functions besides just seal lubrication in the chamber? Perhaps it is for general lubrication also? Perhaps the proven advantages of synthetic oils for lubrication purposes actually ARE beneficial, even if you don't happen to think so? Perhaps the much better (lower) viscosity at extremely cold temperatures are of huge benefit in reducing cold start wear, which is where 90% of engine wear occurs? Perhaps the high-temperature stability and consistent molecular length of synthetic oils provide better lubrication and bearing protection under high-temperature, high load conditions? Perhaps the resistance to viscosity breakdown over longer change intervals would be of great benefit, given Mazda's bizarre oil change procedure that only change 60% of the oil volume?
Again, rudely put - just because you don't understand the benefits of synthetic oil doesn't mean that there aren't any benefits.
PS - mutual rudeness aside, you've posted several times that the Renesis is supposed to use 1 quart of oil every 600 miles. I think you'll find that from the experience of posters on this forum, the oil consumption isn't nearly that great, and is in real life much closer to 1 quart every 1500 to 2000 miles.
Regards,
Gordon
12-02-2003, 06:09 PM
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Yeah Snyder, easy on the venting!
I agree with you 100%. However, Mazda must notify each and every owner that they can not use synthetic, and that has not happened yet.
I won't use synth in my RX8, and the evidence that people are posting is great!
So what is the big deal anyway? Mazda has not notified all owners to NOT use Synthetic oils, in the USA, to date.
That's the big deal, and I await notification in the mail from MNAO about the synthetic oil debate to put it to rest for good!
So let's get back to the topic "mazda's response on synthetic oil"
Anyone else get a similar response yet from MNAO (not the dealer, as they are really "independent" from Mazda), or even a non-similar response?
I agree with you 100%. However, Mazda must notify each and every owner that they can not use synthetic, and that has not happened yet.
I won't use synth in my RX8, and the evidence that people are posting is great!
So what is the big deal anyway? Mazda has not notified all owners to NOT use Synthetic oils, in the USA, to date.
That's the big deal, and I await notification in the mail from MNAO about the synthetic oil debate to put it to rest for good!
So let's get back to the topic "mazda's response on synthetic oil"
Anyone else get a similar response yet from MNAO (not the dealer, as they are really "independent" from Mazda), or even a non-similar response?
12-02-2003, 09:40 PM
#171
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Re burning 1 qt. every 600 miles -- I just did 1,000 miles over Thanksgiving. Topped off the oil before starting; when I got home it was down only 1/3 on the dipstick range (maybe 1/2 qt.). Should I be worrying that I'm not burning ENOUGH oil? (I'm still on factory oil; have added 1 qt. in first 3,000+ miles. Dealer changes it next week.) BTW my gas mileage is 14-15 mpg commuting and 20-21 6th gear cruising. Wonder if any positive correlation between oil burn and gas mileage (inverse with lack thereof) .....
12-03-2003, 01:14 PM
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well damnit.... I must take this time to admit that for my 90 RX-7 vert for 120k miles and 3200 miles on my Rx8 I been using Mobil 1....... after seeing that card.... just dino for my rotors from now on. But this is complete crap that they didnt include that in the manual
12-03-2003, 03:05 PM
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No offense meant. the 1-600 ratio I gave, it what I have heard, and I personally think it is a little high myself. Didnt mean to stir up troubles Ive said all I can say about synthetic, so Im taking the hint and leaving it to you fellas lol
Ive said all I can say about synthetic, so Im taking the hint and leaving it to you fellas lol
12-11-2003, 05:03 PM
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Synthetic Oil Update from Mazda
Some time back I sent an Email to Mazda to request information on using a synthetic blend 5w20 Motorcraft oil in my RX-8. At the time I received a reply that Mazda does NOT recommend using synthetic oils at all in the RX-8. Today I recieved a followup Email which I thought might be of general interest - and will probably start another big controversy. It follows:
"Dear Bob,
I have an update for you regarding the RX-8 and synthetic oil. Mazda
has done some additional testing and due to the different seals in the
Renesis engine, you can use synthetic oil.
I hope this update proves helpful.
Please take a moment to give us your opinion about our e-mail service.
Click the link below to complete a brief, online survey.
http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?...6RM8GQPRWCFQ5M
Regards,
Jennifer Gray
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business"
"Dear Bob,
I have an update for you regarding the RX-8 and synthetic oil. Mazda
has done some additional testing and due to the different seals in the
Renesis engine, you can use synthetic oil.
I hope this update proves helpful.
Please take a moment to give us your opinion about our e-mail service.
Click the link below to complete a brief, online survey.
http://www.zoomerang.com/survey.zgi?...6RM8GQPRWCFQ5M
Regards,
Jennifer Gray
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business"