Steaming your Wankel...?
03-06-2011, 08:13 PM
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Steaming your Wankel...?
Not a huge rotary guy but not on my first, I used to clean my older engines using a hard mist of water through the carb into the intake while reving the **** out of them to clean carbon. This is what we called steaming the engine, I have heard rumors from rotary buddies that on their FC's they dump a vacuum line into a bucket of water and it magically mist the water into their cylinders or Ellipticals how ever you like to refer to them. Also heard its nearly impossible to hydro lock a wankel?
Curious of the effects steaming has on the Renisis and if any are ill? If positive, do we have a good vacuum lines for this or should i bust out the squirt bottle?
Curious of the effects steaming has on the Renisis and if any are ill? If positive, do we have a good vacuum lines for this or should i bust out the squirt bottle?
03-06-2011, 08:42 PM
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You are correct that rotaries are harder to hydrolock than piston engines.
Running a garden hose into the intake or similar is sort of thought of in the same category as air pump super chargers, turbonators, etc. Your maintenance efforts could be better spent elsewhere.
Running a garden hose into the intake or similar is sort of thought of in the same category as air pump super chargers, turbonators, etc. Your maintenance efforts could be better spent elsewhere.
03-06-2011, 09:26 PM
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By no means will I be sticking that old waterhose in my intake... And how so? You must be mistaken that I am reffering to this as it's some form of cheap power or a gas mileage bump which is not what im reffering to in any way. This is all in the chase for engine longevity. Just wondering if what is good for a 13b-REW is also cleansing for the MSP? As far as my knowledge goes it would work just fine, but a new Renisis' aint cheap.
Last edited by hotdoghogie; 03-06-2011 at 09:31 PM.
03-06-2011, 10:00 PM
#5
The experts I have talked too (Pinapple Racing in Portland,OR) reccomended steam cleaning, but suggested that I be a little more careful than the FC guys. Something about our apex seals (I think it was) being a little more fragile and therefore not as impervious to the water as the FC, so you shouldn't just suck a solid stream of water into the auxilary ports. The water delivery needs to be regulated.
Based on Rob's advice, I went to Home Depot and got some 1/4" Polythylene tube and a cheap little brass valve to fit. Total cost was under $10.
Ran a lenth of the tube from the auxilary port, under the weather stripping of the hood, and through the passenger window. Connected the end of the tube to the valve inlet, and then ran a short section of tube from the valve outlet into a cup of distilled water sitting in the cup holder.
I found that if I opened the valve just slightly while revving the motor, I could get water into the motor without undue roughness or CEL flashing. I really don't know the "right" amount, but I was most comfortable keeping the flow rate just below the point that would cause a CEL. It wasn't much water - I never saw a solid section of water in the tube - more like large droplets moving through the tube.
Anyway, I did this both stationary and while driving the car - ran about a quart of water through each port.
After complete, I had a better idle, and it even seemed like I have better low-end compression & engine braking. Can't prove it with a compression test, but I no longer have to slip the clutch like I used to when launching. Also seems like the car starts better when hot, but with the new starter it's hard to tell for sure.
One thing I didn't do was jack up the oil delivery like you are suppoed to do with the Seafoam approach - I don't know if that's important with this method.
It's certainly easier & cheaper than the seafoam method, and it seems to work well with no immediate downide. Curious if anybody here has comments about this approach.
Based on Rob's advice, I went to Home Depot and got some 1/4" Polythylene tube and a cheap little brass valve to fit. Total cost was under $10.
Ran a lenth of the tube from the auxilary port, under the weather stripping of the hood, and through the passenger window. Connected the end of the tube to the valve inlet, and then ran a short section of tube from the valve outlet into a cup of distilled water sitting in the cup holder.
I found that if I opened the valve just slightly while revving the motor, I could get water into the motor without undue roughness or CEL flashing. I really don't know the "right" amount, but I was most comfortable keeping the flow rate just below the point that would cause a CEL. It wasn't much water - I never saw a solid section of water in the tube - more like large droplets moving through the tube.
Anyway, I did this both stationary and while driving the car - ran about a quart of water through each port.
After complete, I had a better idle, and it even seemed like I have better low-end compression & engine braking. Can't prove it with a compression test, but I no longer have to slip the clutch like I used to when launching. Also seems like the car starts better when hot, but with the new starter it's hard to tell for sure.
One thing I didn't do was jack up the oil delivery like you are suppoed to do with the Seafoam approach - I don't know if that's important with this method.
It's certainly easier & cheaper than the seafoam method, and it seems to work well with no immediate downide. Curious if anybody here has comments about this approach.
03-08-2011, 07:50 PM
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I use exactly the same method as GeorgeH with good results.
Be aware that the cat may get hot so keep an eye on that and be aware that if you run too much water through, you will severely contaminate the engine oil. Don't ask me how I know.
I dip the end of the tube into the water container allowing it to take little "sips"
After about a pint of water, I give it a "sip" of MMO to help replace the oil film that may have been removed through the procedure.
I usually do an oil change afterwards just to be sure.
Be aware that the cat may get hot so keep an eye on that and be aware that if you run too much water through, you will severely contaminate the engine oil. Don't ask me how I know.
I dip the end of the tube into the water container allowing it to take little "sips"
After about a pint of water, I give it a "sip" of MMO to help replace the oil film that may have been removed through the procedure.
I usually do an oil change afterwards just to be sure.
03-08-2011, 09:38 PM
#7
Thanks for the comment on oil contamination - now that I think about it, I noticed an abnormal amount of froth in my oil after the cleaning - that must have been from the water. I did two changes immediately - which I like to do after the winter before race season starts - so I'm fine now. But I agree, people should change their oil after doing this.
Another point - I pulled my OEM cat out after the cleaning, and saw no visible accumulation or degradation to the inside of the cat. I think as long as you are gentle with the water rate, it won't damage the cat.
Another point - I pulled my OEM cat out after the cleaning, and saw no visible accumulation or degradation to the inside of the cat. I think as long as you are gentle with the water rate, it won't damage the cat.
03-10-2011, 01:36 PM
#8
There are about a zillion posts on this, search "Seafoam". I don't know why people still claim rotaries are harder to hydrolock than piston engines. 10:1 compression is 10:1 compression, water is incompressible, so bad things will happen in either case if too much water gets ingested. Just ask the guys who suck water into their CAI for first hand experience.
03-10-2011, 01:38 PM
#9
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hiFliite: the AEM example isn't valid here as the reason they have issues is because the MAF sensor gets wet and freaks out.
if you are injesting water after the MAF (as most would to clean) then water is rarely an issue with the rotary engine if done properly.
with that said: I still wouldn't do it to my car but it has been done before.
if you are injesting water after the MAF (as most would to clean) then water is rarely an issue with the rotary engine if done properly.
with that said: I still wouldn't do it to my car but it has been done before.
03-10-2011, 04:48 PM
#10
hiFliite: the AEM example isn't valid here as the reason they have issues is because the MAF sensor gets wet and freaks out.
if you are injesting water after the MAF (as most would to clean) then water is rarely an issue with the rotary engine if done properly.
with that said: I still wouldn't do it to my car but it has been done before.
if you are injesting water after the MAF (as most would to clean) then water is rarely an issue with the rotary engine if done properly.
with that said: I still wouldn't do it to my car but it has been done before.
Hydrolocking a renny is pretty damn hard btw, it takes an effort that goes well beyond the 2 little nipples we have on the manifold.
03-10-2011, 08:07 PM
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There are about a zillion posts on this, search "Seafoam". I don't know why people still claim rotaries are harder to hydrolock than piston engines. 10:1 compression is 10:1 compression, water is incompressible, so bad things will happen in either case if too much water gets ingested. Just ask the guys who suck water into their CAI for first hand experience.
03-12-2011, 03:20 AM
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IMO seafoam just seems to be too concentrated, never really noticed anything afterwards and now my oil has completely lost its original properties not to mention the next oil change getting mixed into whats left of the old crud. Water and oil are immiscible fluids and water turns to gas at a very low temp, that way water will eventually evaporate out of the oil in a short amount of time. I'm no chemist but two petrolium base products will mix and alter each other characteristics. Seems like a sticky mess IMO but like I stated im no member of the ASPO.
03-12-2011, 07:07 AM
#17
Metanol+water mixtures are corrosive for aluminium:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...61204/abstract
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs...p-racing-fuel-
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...61204/abstract
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs...p-racing-fuel-
03-15-2011, 12:53 PM
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The experts I have talked too (Pinapple Racing in Portland,OR) reccomended steam cleaning, but suggested that I be a little more careful than the FC guys. Something about our apex seals (I think it was) being a little more fragile and therefore not as impervious to the water as the FC, so you shouldn't just suck a solid stream of water into the auxilary ports. The water delivery needs to be regulated.
Based on Rob's advice, I went to Home Depot and got some 1/4" Polythylene tube and a cheap little brass valve to fit. Total cost was under $10.
Ran a lenth of the tube from the auxilary port, under the weather stripping of the hood, and through the passenger window. Connected the end of the tube to the valve inlet, and then ran a short section of tube from the valve outlet into a cup of distilled water sitting in the cup holder.
I found that if I opened the valve just slightly while revving the motor, I could get water into the motor without undue roughness or CEL flashing. I really don't know the "right" amount, but I was most comfortable keeping the flow rate just below the point that would cause a CEL. It wasn't much water - I never saw a solid section of water in the tube - more like large droplets moving through the tube.
Anyway, I did this both stationary and while driving the car - ran about a quart of water through each port.
After complete, I had a better idle, and it even seemed like I have better low-end compression & engine braking. Can't prove it with a compression test, but I no longer have to slip the clutch like I used to when launching. Also seems like the car starts better when hot, but with the new starter it's hard to tell for sure.
One thing I didn't do was jack up the oil delivery like you are suppoed to do with the Seafoam approach - I don't know if that's important with this method.
It's certainly easier & cheaper than the seafoam method, and it seems to work well with no immediate downide. Curious if anybody here has comments about this approach.
Based on Rob's advice, I went to Home Depot and got some 1/4" Polythylene tube and a cheap little brass valve to fit. Total cost was under $10.
Ran a lenth of the tube from the auxilary port, under the weather stripping of the hood, and through the passenger window. Connected the end of the tube to the valve inlet, and then ran a short section of tube from the valve outlet into a cup of distilled water sitting in the cup holder.
I found that if I opened the valve just slightly while revving the motor, I could get water into the motor without undue roughness or CEL flashing. I really don't know the "right" amount, but I was most comfortable keeping the flow rate just below the point that would cause a CEL. It wasn't much water - I never saw a solid section of water in the tube - more like large droplets moving through the tube.
Anyway, I did this both stationary and while driving the car - ran about a quart of water through each port.
After complete, I had a better idle, and it even seemed like I have better low-end compression & engine braking. Can't prove it with a compression test, but I no longer have to slip the clutch like I used to when launching. Also seems like the car starts better when hot, but with the new starter it's hard to tell for sure.
One thing I didn't do was jack up the oil delivery like you are suppoed to do with the Seafoam approach - I don't know if that's important with this method.
It's certainly easier & cheaper than the seafoam method, and it seems to work well with no immediate downide. Curious if anybody here has comments about this approach.
Heck, I've been trying to "kill" my rotary from day 1 with Mobil 1 and 87 octane gas. Then I got even more "suicidal" with MMO premix. Time to take it to the next level. 
So, you just did one rotor at a time? I wonder if if would be better to keep the engine "balanced" and feed both aux ports at the same time? Or is it necessary to keep 1 rotor for power?
03-15-2011, 07:05 PM
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Thanks guys im learning a lot, I was told they are hard to hydro lock because the apex seal will actually spring back in their seats when they become over compressed which makes it much harder to lock.
03-16-2011, 02:15 PM
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Well, that's my thought-experiment for the day.. I'm probably full of crap.
05-06-2011, 10:22 AM
#23
I like the idea. "Clean as you drive" is such a catchy phrase Heck, I've been trying to "kill" my rotary from day 1 with Mobil 1 and 87 octane gas. Then I got even more "suicidal" with MMO premix. Time to take it to the next level.
So, you just did one rotor at a time? I wonder if if would be better to keep the engine "balanced" and feed both aux ports at the same time? Or is it necessary to keep 1 rotor for power?
Heck, I've been trying to "kill" my rotary from day 1 with Mobil 1 and 87 octane gas. Then I got even more "suicidal" with MMO premix. Time to take it to the next level. So, you just did one rotor at a time? I wonder if if would be better to keep the engine "balanced" and feed both aux ports at the same time? Or is it necessary to keep 1 rotor for power?
I also just ordered this mister from amazon http://www.amazon.com/Misty-Mate-Spo...4621403&sr=1-3 for $7 which will turn water into fine mist, helping to distribute water more evenly into combustion chamber..I guess I could also run the mister with seafoam...with fine mist you can also use the ports pre TB so no hassle removing the nipples, plus you clean various intake valves rx8 has while driving and using the whole RPM range.
what I like about this method is there is no waiting and no sensors to disconnect.
Last edited by Nadrealista; 05-06-2011 at 10:25 AM.
05-08-2011, 06:20 PM
#24
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I just attempted this method. usually i'm a seafoam guy but i figured this couldn't hurt. Maybe i'm crazy but there seems to be a different tone to the exhaust. That and engine braking seems to be less(again could just be my imagination) other than that no real difference. One thing I couldn't figure out is how do I know when I'm done? I only used about a half a 20 oz bottle. Let it "sip" as described in a earlier post.
05-08-2011, 06:40 PM
#25
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Not a huge rotary guy but not on my first, I used to clean my older engines using a hard mist of water through the carb into the intake while reving the **** out of them to clean carbon. This is what we called steaming the engine, I have heard rumors from rotary buddies that on their FC's they dump a vacuum line into a bucket of water and it magically mist the water into their cylinders or Ellipticals how ever you like to refer to them. Also heard its nearly impossible to hydro lock a wankel?
Curious of the effects steaming has on the Renisis and if any are ill? If positive, do we have a good vacuum lines for this or should i bust out the squirt bottle?
Curious of the effects steaming has on the Renisis and if any are ill? If positive, do we have a good vacuum lines for this or should i bust out the squirt bottle?
Happy rotoring.