RX8Club.com

RX8Club.com (https://www.rx8club.com/)
-   Series I Tech Garage (https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/)
-   -   Steaming your Wankel...? (https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/steaming-your-wankel-212965/)

hotdoghogie 03-06-2011 08:13 PM

Steaming your Wankel...?
 
Not a huge rotary guy but not on my first, I used to clean my older engines using a hard mist of water through the carb into the intake while reving the piss out of them to clean carbon. This is what we called steaming the engine, I have heard rumors from rotary buddies that on their FC's they dump a vacuum line into a bucket of water and it magically mist the water into their cylinders or Ellipticals how ever you like to refer to them. Also heard its nearly impossible to hydro lock a wankel?

Curious of the effects steaming has on the Renisis and if any are ill? If positive, do we have a good vacuum lines for this or should i bust out the squirt bottle?

Snrub 03-06-2011 08:42 PM

You are correct that rotaries are harder to hydrolock than piston engines.

Running a garden hose into the intake or similar is sort of thought of in the same category as air pump super chargers, turbonators, etc. Your maintenance efforts could be better spent elsewhere.

SayNoToPistons 03-06-2011 08:46 PM

You can follow the same procedure for steaming that is given for the Seafoam treatment. It is an old cleaning technique also known as de-carbing.

hotdoghogie 03-06-2011 09:26 PM


Originally Posted by Snrub (Post 3904793)
Running a garden hose into the intake or similar is sort of thought of in the same category as air pump super chargers, turbonators, etc. Your maintenance efforts could be better spent elsewhere.


By no means will I be sticking that old waterhose in my intake... And how so? You must be mistaken that I am reffering to this as it's some form of cheap power or a gas mileage bump which is not what im reffering to in any way. This is all in the chase for engine longevity. Just wondering if what is good for a 13b-REW is also cleansing for the MSP? As far as my knowledge goes it would work just fine, but a new Renisis' aint cheap.

GeorgeH 03-06-2011 10:00 PM

The experts I have talked too (Pinapple Racing in Portland,OR) reccomended steam cleaning, but suggested that I be a little more careful than the FC guys. Something about our apex seals (I think it was) being a little more fragile and therefore not as impervious to the water as the FC, so you shouldn't just suck a solid stream of water into the auxilary ports. The water delivery needs to be regulated.

Based on Rob's advice, I went to Home Depot and got some 1/4" Polythylene tube and a cheap little brass valve to fit. Total cost was under $10.

Ran a lenth of the tube from the auxilary port, under the weather stripping of the hood, and through the passenger window. Connected the end of the tube to the valve inlet, and then ran a short section of tube from the valve outlet into a cup of distilled water sitting in the cup holder.

I found that if I opened the valve just slightly while revving the motor, I could get water into the motor without undue roughness or CEL flashing. I really don't know the "right" amount, but I was most comfortable keeping the flow rate just below the point that would cause a CEL. It wasn't much water - I never saw a solid section of water in the tube - more like large droplets moving through the tube.

Anyway, I did this both stationary and while driving the car - ran about a quart of water through each port.

After complete, I had a better idle, and it even seemed like I have better low-end compression & engine braking. Can't prove it with a compression test, but I no longer have to slip the clutch like I used to when launching. Also seems like the car starts better when hot, but with the new starter it's hard to tell for sure.

One thing I didn't do was jack up the oil delivery like you are suppoed to do with the Seafoam approach - I don't know if that's important with this method.

It's certainly easier & cheaper than the seafoam method, and it seems to work well with no immediate downide. Curious if anybody here has comments about this approach.

RXZOOMM 03-08-2011 07:50 PM

I use exactly the same method as GeorgeH with good results.

Be aware that the cat may get hot so keep an eye on that and be aware that if you run too much water through, you will severely contaminate the engine oil. Don't ask me how I know.

I dip the end of the tube into the water container allowing it to take little "sips"
After about a pint of water, I give it a "sip" of MMO to help replace the oil film that may have been removed through the procedure.

I usually do an oil change afterwards just to be sure.

GeorgeH 03-08-2011 09:38 PM

Thanks for the comment on oil contamination - now that I think about it, I noticed an abnormal amount of froth in my oil after the cleaning - that must have been from the water. I did two changes immediately - which I like to do after the winter before race season starts - so I'm fine now. But I agree, people should change their oil after doing this.

Another point - I pulled my OEM cat out after the cleaning, and saw no visible accumulation or degradation to the inside of the cat. I think as long as you are gentle with the water rate, it won't damage the cat.

HiFlite999 03-10-2011 01:36 PM

There are about a zillion posts on this, search "Seafoam". I don't know why people still claim rotaries are harder to hydrolock than piston engines. 10:1 compression is 10:1 compression, water is incompressible, so bad things will happen in either case if too much water gets ingested. Just ask the guys who suck water into their CAI for first hand experience.

Jedi54 03-10-2011 01:38 PM

hiFliite: the AEM example isn't valid here as the reason they have issues is because the MAF sensor gets wet and freaks out.
if you are injesting water after the MAF (as most would to clean) then water is rarely an issue with the rotary engine if done properly.


with that said: I still wouldn't do it to my car but it has been done before.

bse50 03-10-2011 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by Jedi54 (Post 3909629)
hiFliite: the AEM example isn't valid here as the reason they have issues is because the MAF sensor gets wet and freaks out.
if you are injesting water after the MAF (as most would to clean) then water is rarely an issue with the rotary engine if done properly.


with that said: I still wouldn't do it to my car but it has been done before.

Funny, that's my method of choice :)
Hydrolocking a renny is pretty damn hard btw, it takes an effort that goes well beyond the 2 little nipples we have on the manifold.

WTBRotary! 03-10-2011 05:18 PM

Hmm.... This sounds interesting...

Nubo 03-10-2011 08:07 PM


Originally Posted by HiFlite999 (Post 3909622)
There are about a zillion posts on this, search "Seafoam". I don't know why people still claim rotaries are harder to hydrolock than piston engines. 10:1 compression is 10:1 compression, water is incompressible, so bad things will happen in either case if too much water gets ingested. Just ask the guys who suck water into their CAI for first hand experience.

The liquid tends to lift the apex seal up into its groove, relieving the compression.

TeamRX8 03-10-2011 09:01 PM

you would be better served to steam clean the family jewels, just sayin' ...

GeorgeH 03-10-2011 11:11 PM

It worked very well for me. No obnoxious smoke, no need to buy any seafoam, no need to wait around an hour. If you do it in your driveway, you can get a decent cleaning done in 20 minutes.

Just 'sayin.

hotdoghogie 03-12-2011 03:20 AM

IMO seafoam just seems to be too concentrated, never really noticed anything afterwards and now my oil has completely lost its original properties not to mention the next oil change getting mixed into whats left of the old crud. Water and oil are immiscible fluids and water turns to gas at a very low temp, that way water will eventually evaporate out of the oil in a short amount of time. I'm no chemist but two petrolium base products will mix and alter each other characteristics. Seems like a sticky mess IMO but like I stated im no member of the ASPO.

Rote8 03-12-2011 06:54 AM

You could just use water/methanol injection...

bse50 03-12-2011 07:07 AM

Metanol+water mixtures are corrosive for aluminium:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...61204/abstract
http://www.whitfieldoil.com/www/docs...p-racing-fuel-

GeorgeH 03-12-2011 11:20 AM


Originally Posted by Rote8 (Post 3911279)
You could just use water/methanol injection...

Effectively, that's exactly what I had, on a temporary basis. For 10 bucks.

Nubo 03-15-2011 12:53 PM


Originally Posted by GeorgeH (Post 3904897)
The experts I have talked too (Pinapple Racing in Portland,OR) reccomended steam cleaning, but suggested that I be a little more careful than the FC guys. Something about our apex seals (I think it was) being a little more fragile and therefore not as impervious to the water as the FC, so you shouldn't just suck a solid stream of water into the auxilary ports. The water delivery needs to be regulated.

Based on Rob's advice, I went to Home Depot and got some 1/4" Polythylene tube and a cheap little brass valve to fit. Total cost was under $10.

Ran a lenth of the tube from the auxilary port, under the weather stripping of the hood, and through the passenger window. Connected the end of the tube to the valve inlet, and then ran a short section of tube from the valve outlet into a cup of distilled water sitting in the cup holder.

I found that if I opened the valve just slightly while revving the motor, I could get water into the motor without undue roughness or CEL flashing. I really don't know the "right" amount, but I was most comfortable keeping the flow rate just below the point that would cause a CEL. It wasn't much water - I never saw a solid section of water in the tube - more like large droplets moving through the tube.

Anyway, I did this both stationary and while driving the car - ran about a quart of water through each port.

After complete, I had a better idle, and it even seemed like I have better low-end compression & engine braking. Can't prove it with a compression test, but I no longer have to slip the clutch like I used to when launching. Also seems like the car starts better when hot, but with the new starter it's hard to tell for sure.

One thing I didn't do was jack up the oil delivery like you are suppoed to do with the Seafoam approach - I don't know if that's important with this method.

It's certainly easier & cheaper than the seafoam method, and it seems to work well with no immediate downide. Curious if anybody here has comments about this approach.

I like the idea. "Clean as you drive" is such a catchy phrase :) Heck, I've been trying to "kill" my rotary from day 1 with Mobil 1 and 87 octane gas. Then I got even more "suicidal" with MMO premix. Time to take it to the next level. :mdrmed:

So, you just did one rotor at a time? I wonder if if would be better to keep the engine "balanced" and feed both aux ports at the same time? Or is it necessary to keep 1 rotor for power?

GeorgeH 03-15-2011 03:01 PM

I suspect you could do both rotors at once, as along as you are conservative with the amount of water you allow in. A simple "tee" would enable this.

hotdoghogie 03-15-2011 07:05 PM

Thanks guys im learning a lot, I was told they are hard to hydro lock because the apex seal will actually spring back in their seats when they become over compressed which makes it much harder to lock.

Nubo 03-16-2011 02:15 PM


Originally Posted by hotdoghogie (Post 3914420)
Thanks guys im learning a lot, I was told they are hard to hydro lock because the apex seal will actually spring back in their seats when they become over compressed which makes it much harder to lock.

I don't think it's quite the compression itself that does it. If you imagine the business-end of the apex seal is a bit rounded, which would tend to let it "surf" on whatever liquid film exists -- because of its non-compressibility. With the normally very-thin layer of oil this is an effective compression seal. Introduce a thick layer of liquid, the seal "surfs" up higher above the now-thick layer. With the thicker layer of liquid, boundary layer effect gives way to laminar flow, allowing liquid to escape under the seal into the other chambers.

Well, that's my thought-experiment for the day.. I'm probably full of crap.

Nadrealista 05-06-2011 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by Nubo (Post 3914051)
I like the idea. "Clean as you drive" is such a catchy phrase :) Heck, I've been trying to "kill" my rotary from day 1 with Mobil 1 and 87 octane gas. Then I got even more "suicidal" with MMO premix. Time to take it to the next level. :mdrmed:

So, you just did one rotor at a time? I wonder if if would be better to keep the engine "balanced" and feed both aux ports at the same time? Or is it necessary to keep 1 rotor for power?

that is exacly how I do it. half a gallon of distilled water. 2 short, one long hose, a T and keep the rpms between 3-4k..control the flow by pinching the vacuum hose..

I also just ordered this mister from amazon http://www.amazon.com/Misty-Mate-Spo...4621403&sr=1-3 for $7 which will turn water into fine mist, helping to distribute water more evenly into combustion chamber..I guess I could also run the mister with seafoam...with fine mist you can also use the ports pre TB so no hassle removing the nipples, plus you clean various intake valves rx8 has while driving and using the whole RPM range.

what I like about this method is there is no waiting and no sensors to disconnect.

myzon26 05-08-2011 06:20 PM

I just attempted this method. usually i'm a seafoam guy but i figured this couldn't hurt. Maybe i'm crazy but there seems to be a different tone to the exhaust. That and engine braking seems to be less(again could just be my imagination) other than that no real difference. One thing I couldn't figure out is how do I know when I'm done? I only used about a half a 20 oz bottle. Let it "sip" as described in a earlier post.

EricMeyer 05-08-2011 06:40 PM


Originally Posted by hotdoghogie (Post 3904766)
Not a huge rotary guy but not on my first, I used to clean my older engines using a hard mist of water through the carb into the intake while reving the piss out of them to clean carbon. This is what we called steaming the engine, I have heard rumors from rotary buddies that on their FC's they dump a vacuum line into a bucket of water and it magically mist the water into their cylinders or Ellipticals how ever you like to refer to them. Also heard its nearly impossible to hydro lock a wankel?

Curious of the effects steaming has on the Renisis and if any are ill? If positive, do we have a good vacuum lines for this or should i bust out the squirt bottle?

Not a problem. Do it all the time. 12 oz bottle of water or bigger and stick any one of the three vac lines that are just upstream of the throttle body. No parts will get hurt. The Renesis will be fine. Get her nice and hot and pull 5,000 rpms +/- You'll know by ear how it works. For longevity I would understand that ALL of these crazy things wear and lose compression. Generally when they go they sort of go for good. It's a slooow loss of power that is hard to measure. A simple rebuild will get you another 60K miles. The stock coil packs are junk and I'd dump them asap. Continuous replacement of them again and again is more expensive than a one time upgrade. Use a paper air filter element (not a steel screen/mesh). Check the oil frequently (the oil injection pulls from the wet sump) and you are good to go. I'm sure you already know all of this but in case you didn't.....

Happy rotoring.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:09 AM.


© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands