READ ME:Considering rebuilding your engine?
04-25-2012, 11:03 AM
#26
From my point of view the forums and the 8 community is going down the *******.
The new guys are less intelligent and far younger than the current average owner. Cars are running out of warranty and creating even more issues. The average new thread is involving an issue thats been covered a couple hundred times. I know its inevitable it just sucks to see this happen so soon.
Granted I didn't know much about the 8 when I first got it. I did however search and sift through several pages of Q&A.
Again this is all from my point of view...
The new guys are less intelligent and far younger than the current average owner. Cars are running out of warranty and creating even more issues. The average new thread is involving an issue thats been covered a couple hundred times. I know its inevitable it just sucks to see this happen so soon.
Granted I didn't know much about the 8 when I first got it. I did however search and sift through several pages of Q&A.
Again this is all from my point of view...
04-25-2012, 12:13 PM
#27
the good part is that the mentality you refer to will also grow tired of the.....shall we say intracacies.....that make the 8 an 8 (or any rotary for that matter).
so its not all bad...assuming said folks dont take all the 8's down with them.....can I get some vtech with that?
so its not all bad...assuming said folks dont take all the 8's down with them.....can I get some vtech with that?
04-25-2012, 12:41 PM
#28
I am all for helping people and am appreciative of the help received but that is not necessarily the consensus across the forum population. the main issue is "they" (ah...the collective they) are compounding the situation as time goes on....information gets lost inside of threads, threads get duplicated, etc and it makes is harder for the new user to navigate and find information and they are lazy......Google is a tremendous resource
either way the show will go on for those that have the passion
either way the show will go on for those that have the passion
04-25-2012, 12:45 PM
#29
The sentiments you both express have been a concern for many here but they are rarely expressed in public. I tend to think that those of us whom have been around for a long time (long enough to see the changes, anyway) have a choice before us;
1) We can look down our collective noses, lament the changes, and treat new forum members like idiots.
2) We can be ambassadors toward these new forum members, guide them to what we have all learned over the years and make new friends in the process, achieve new levels of respect and leadership from them and our contemporaries, and help the new members learn/grow in the process.
For a glance into where the RX8Club may be headed, take a look at where the RX7Club is now and make your choice.
1) We can look down our collective noses, lament the changes, and treat new forum members like idiots.
2) We can be ambassadors toward these new forum members, guide them to what we have all learned over the years and make new friends in the process, achieve new levels of respect and leadership from them and our contemporaries, and help the new members learn/grow in the process.
For a glance into where the RX8Club may be headed, take a look at where the RX7Club is now and make your choice.
All that said... I have my moments where I call people out on their stupidity and get frustrated. I like the idea of option # 2 on paper, I'll give it a go and steer away from being a negative Nancy.
04-25-2012, 01:18 PM
#30
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
If they just locked redundant threads that are going no where people would be forced to search. There are also other ways to limit noobs. If I see that noob even did a little research and is trying to understand things I will help them. If they are just being lazy they get chastised just like I did (and still do 
).
).
04-25-2012, 02:46 PM
#31
If they just locked redundant threads that are going no where people would be forced to search. There are also other ways to limit noobs. If I see that noob even did a little research and is trying to understand things I will help them. If they are just being lazy they get chastised just like I did (and still do ).
).And i get hate pm all the time, ppl love to be spoon fed these days ...
04-25-2012, 02:49 PM
#32
Registered
The sentiments you both express have been a concern for many here but they are rarely expressed in public. I tend to think that those of us whom have been around for a long time (long enough to see the changes, anyway) have a choice before us;
1) We can look down our collective noses, lament the changes, and treat new forum members like idiots.
2) We can be ambassadors toward these new forum members, guide them to what we have all learned over the years and make new friends in the process, achieve new levels of respect and leadership from them and our contemporaries, and help the new members learn/grow in the process.
For a glance into where the RX8Club may be headed, take a look at where the RX7Club is now and make your choice.
1) We can look down our collective noses, lament the changes, and treat new forum members like idiots.
2) We can be ambassadors toward these new forum members, guide them to what we have all learned over the years and make new friends in the process, achieve new levels of respect and leadership from them and our contemporaries, and help the new members learn/grow in the process.
For a glance into where the RX8Club may be headed, take a look at where the RX7Club is now and make your choice.
I have say that by personal experience with you, option #2 can be very effective.
You might not remember all the details of the conversation, but I spent an afternoon last year at your home while on a visit to AZ. Those few hours talking with you gave me most - if not all - the information I needed to be a better informed rotary engine owner. You walked me through everything from how to start the car, LOL, to forced induction.
That's not to say I am a rotary expert now. But now I don't need to start new threads every day asking basic things on the forums, and also know who to contact by PM when I have a more challenging technical question.
But the 'old-timers' should also remember that while they have been driving their cars for 8 plus years and know your **** inside out, buying an RX-8 can be quite a 'traumatizing' experience for a new owner today no matter how many threads they read before buying.
Noobs today face 8 plus years of accumulated negative comments about the car buried on these forums. The old-timers started everything from scratch. No wonder why a new member starts freaking out when suddenly a check engine light flashes for the first time - happened to me too - or any other minor issue. Then you see new threads every five seconds.
But some people are just too immature to want to learn. Hey, sometimes I wonder if some new members are just teenagers. I can't understand the **** they write. Poor grammar, crazy expressions, etc. Crazy!!!!
Last edited by pistonhater; 04-25-2012 at 02:52 PM.
04-25-2012, 03:41 PM
#33
I'm an owner who bought my 8 relatively recently, and I was attracted to the car in part because of its relatively poor resale value.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
04-25-2012, 03:56 PM
#34
I'm an owner who bought my 8 relatively recently, and I was attracted to the car in part because of its relatively poor resale value.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
04-25-2012, 05:48 PM
#36
I'm an owner who bought my 8 relatively recently, and I was attracted to the car in part because of its relatively poor resale value.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
04-25-2012, 07:28 PM
#37
I'm an owner who bought my 8 relatively recently, and I was attracted to the car in part because of its relatively poor resale value.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
I also considered that other types of automotive enthusiasts (read: ricers) would also be attracted to the bargain, many of whom have yet to learn the meaning of the term false economy. I have hopes that the fragile nature of the 8 will teach those owners the meaning of that term rapidly and painfully, thus reducing the frequency with which I will see them on the road, while also increasing the size of the aftermarket and the quantity of good used parts in junkyards.
So, overall, I think the demographic shift in ownership could be a good thing for diehard owners and vendors.
04-26-2012, 02:38 PM
#38
This really is one of the best threads I've seen in years. Very humorous while addressing a very important topic.
My biggest pet peeve with the wankel rotary engine is that being an odd engine it can attract odd people (Myself included). There is an unusually high number of do it yourselfers among the rotary crowd and that is good and bad. People assume that with so few moving parts it can't be that difficult to rebuild the engine and then people offer instructions online (Or DVD) on how to do so. I would suggest that most people should not be attempting to build an FC engine nor an FE (Even trickier). The fact that there are not as many moving parts creates the illusion (Or delusion) that it's easy while in fact each individual part has greater importance than similar functioning parts in a piston engine.
I think lack of experience is the biggest enemy to a proper build, followed by ignorance (Not having or reading detailed instructions), lack of skill, tools and other proper facilities being the other determining factors. There was a book 30 years ago called 'Rotary engine overhaul criteria and criteria for parts replacement' that I read. If you don't understand what you are looking at or for, how can you do an effective job?
I was taught to build (Hands on) by someone who has built close to 1000 and I also used the Mazda books to help guide. I'm not experienced enough to feel confident to build them for a living even though I know I can do a better job than most. Not everyone needs to cut hair. Not everyone needs to do IT work or fix jet aircraft.
The result of the increase in untrained people building rotaries is the subsequent increase in bad reputation for the rotary. Someone buys a car that they are told had an engine built a year ago and they wonder why it already works like junk or has a catastrophic failure. I will cut my own lawn but I don't think I need to install my own roof.
Paul.
My biggest pet peeve with the wankel rotary engine is that being an odd engine it can attract odd people (Myself included). There is an unusually high number of do it yourselfers among the rotary crowd and that is good and bad. People assume that with so few moving parts it can't be that difficult to rebuild the engine and then people offer instructions online (Or DVD) on how to do so. I would suggest that most people should not be attempting to build an FC engine nor an FE (Even trickier). The fact that there are not as many moving parts creates the illusion (Or delusion) that it's easy while in fact each individual part has greater importance than similar functioning parts in a piston engine.
I think lack of experience is the biggest enemy to a proper build, followed by ignorance (Not having or reading detailed instructions), lack of skill, tools and other proper facilities being the other determining factors. There was a book 30 years ago called 'Rotary engine overhaul criteria and criteria for parts replacement' that I read. If you don't understand what you are looking at or for, how can you do an effective job?
I was taught to build (Hands on) by someone who has built close to 1000 and I also used the Mazda books to help guide. I'm not experienced enough to feel confident to build them for a living even though I know I can do a better job than most. Not everyone needs to cut hair. Not everyone needs to do IT work or fix jet aircraft.
The result of the increase in untrained people building rotaries is the subsequent increase in bad reputation for the rotary. Someone buys a car that they are told had an engine built a year ago and they wonder why it already works like junk or has a catastrophic failure. I will cut my own lawn but I don't think I need to install my own roof.
Paul.
Last edited by Mazmart; 04-26-2012 at 02:42 PM.
04-30-2012, 01:32 AM
#41
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Yeah and if you ask questions about specific build topics from five different builders you will get five different answers.
If you get more than 50k out of a typical rebuild reusing the large parts you are doing really well. But from what I have seen, heard, etc. most do not get much more than that unless they are dealing with more of a new built engine rather having a rebuild done reusing your engines major parts.
If you get more than 50k out of a typical rebuild reusing the large parts you are doing really well. But from what I have seen, heard, etc. most do not get much more than that unless they are dealing with more of a new built engine rather having a rebuild done reusing your engines major parts.
04-30-2012, 07:37 AM
#42
true that. you can get away with using GOOD used parts, but still the housings need to be worked ( to get a flat surface again), the irons need lapping etc etc. Trouble is --there are a are less and less of good useded parts.
One thing I have wondered about.... I wonder if the shape of the housing/irons change ever so slightly once it is all bolted together? Cause in a recip engine --when the bore is being trued--the heads are installed ( really just a plate) and torqued down before the procedure. The bolt TQ in combination actually changes the shape of the clyinder. This makes a huge difference in the ability of the piston/rings to seal.
So I wonder how bolting up this engine affects all the clearances?
I remember an old supercar engine builder that would actually takes days to TQ the rods, just a little bit at the time, to the crankshaft--he said that the parts have to get used to each other. He was a famous guy and you dont get that way without having great results.
One thing I have wondered about.... I wonder if the shape of the housing/irons change ever so slightly once it is all bolted together? Cause in a recip engine --when the bore is being trued--the heads are installed ( really just a plate) and torqued down before the procedure. The bolt TQ in combination actually changes the shape of the clyinder. This makes a huge difference in the ability of the piston/rings to seal.
So I wonder how bolting up this engine affects all the clearances?
I remember an old supercar engine builder that would actually takes days to TQ the rods, just a little bit at the time, to the crankshaft--he said that the parts have to get used to each other. He was a famous guy and you dont get that way without having great results.
Last edited by olddragger; 04-30-2012 at 07:40 AM.
04-30-2012, 04:03 PM
#44
you mean the pattern used in Tq'ing the rods/bolts? If that is what you meant--yep--very much aware of that. recips have the same--a certain pattern in tightening down the head bolts. They STILL get clyinder flex. I guess anytime torque is applied to a piece of metal--it is going to distort some. I just wonder what distortion is happening in the rotary?
I dont know if there is anything that you can do about it, but is there?
Different subject: does anyone know what the Ra value is on the housing surface?
I dont know if there is anything that you can do about it, but is there?
Different subject: does anyone know what the Ra value is on the housing surface?
05-02-2012, 08:35 PM
#46
I'd imagine that in the factory they have machines which can tighten all the bolts simultaneously to an ultrasonicly measured preload. The torque specs and tightening patterns may be a poor substitute.
05-02-2012, 10:20 PM
#47
For one the tq specs are 25ft lbs or something insignificant like that. Second there's like 19 bolts all facing one direction. Third its easier to do it by hand.
Fourth the workshop manual would have mentioned something like that.
Fifth most rebuilds made in "the factory" last less miles than a hand-built engine by a professional builder.
05-05-2012, 01:09 AM
#49
A smart fastening system is one that can handle many different types of fastening strategies. These strategies may include:
Torque control with torque monitoring.
Torque control with torque and angle monitoring.
Torque and angle control with torque and angle monitoring as well as rate monitoring (linear portion of curve) torque and angle control into yield with torque and angle monitoring (non-linear portion of curve).
Tension tightening control with torque and angle monitor.
Yield control for maximum joint integrity with torque and angle monitoring and full report capabilities
A smart fastening system can be a cost savings approach to your fastening needs by allowing the joints to be fastened to their best level of clamp load for maximum life in the field. As a result of proper tightening at the manufacturing and assembly level the warranty cost for after sale repairs can be kept low due to the higher level of quality assemblies in the beginning. A poorly fastened joint does not look any different than a quality fastened joint to the naked eye and therefore does not get the attention it should, consequently the joint gets into the customer's hands and eventually comes back as a warranty problem and an extra expense that could have been avoided.
Unfortunately quality is not always as tangible and visible as leather seats and total quality has to be introduced at every step of the design, manufacture and assembly process. Even the smallest of screws and the way they are fastened can have a large effect on the perceived quality of an assembled product. Consider the trim screws or the mounting screws for the i.p. of an automobile, if they are not assembled properly you can end up with a squeak or rattle. That alone reduces the perceived quality by a big factor.
Now consider the really important joints such as the safety critical or the 'walk home critical'. These can include the suspension , steering and wheels as well as the engine and transmission assemblies. Probably the most important of the joints in the engine is the connecting rod joint. Of course all the joints in the engine are critical but the connecting rod joints must be fastened correctly or else the engine can fly apart, literally!! The connecting rods are usually manufactured in a two step process; the caps are sawed from the rod and the caps and rod ends are machined then fastened together and the bearing hole is bored and honed. The fasteners are removed and the bearing shells are inserted and the rod assembly is fastened to the crankshaft. If the fastening is not adequate at either of these stations the chances for a non uniform oil thickness or the chances of an egg shaped hole is highly probable. These conditions alone can lead to a scored crank, spun bearing or even worse - a blown engine. Internal engine repairs and replacements are very expensive, both in monetary value and in customer satisfaction value.
The joints in the engine assembly that demand particular care are 1) the connecting rod to crankshaft; 2) the main caps to the block or the main girdle to block depending on the design; 3) the flywheel to the crankshaft; 4) the camshaft bearing strap joint, again depending on the design; 5) the head to block joint which is probably the most interactive and sensitive joint in the engine; 6) the cam driving sprocket mounting; 7) the front damper or hub to crankshaft joint which in some engines is also the oil pump driver; 8) the manual clutch to flywheel mounting. These joints can be considered as both safety critical and walk home critical. I don't have to illustrate what could be the result of a blown engine due to a loose connecting rod bolt in rush hour traffic in Detroit or any other large city.
The other critical joints that demand proper fastening are the suspension and steering components. All the fasteners that hold engine cradles to the body, the engine mounting, the axle mounting and wheel mounting all deserve the best type of fastening that can be afforded at the initial assembly point. I will repeat from the beginning that quality is not always as easy to see as leather seats but a trouble free car assembly and subsequent 100,000 mile satisfied customer is definitely a reward for the built in quality through quality fastening.
There is no doubt that sophisticated fastening equipment is more expensive than the old style air driven reaction torque nutrunners, but the times have changed drastically and so have the customers expectations for the most value and quality for their money, so investment must be made to deliver the best possible product to the customer. Assembly is the final stage of manufacture and this is where the quality of all the parts have to come together in the final product build. The engine was assembled the best way and the body and chassis were assembled the best way now all the components come together and the final step is to marry everything together using the best fastening that can help give that build the quality the customer looks for and deserves for his money. This is why it is economically feasible to invest in smart fastening systems.
It is economic suicide to not build in quality, the systems are available now and are affordable. The fastening strategies are the state of the art and joint analysis is available to determine the fastening strategy that will best give quality fastening to your joints.
George Lorimer, Retired.
G.M. Powertrain Fastener Lab.
Torque control with torque monitoring.
Torque control with torque and angle monitoring.
Torque and angle control with torque and angle monitoring as well as rate monitoring (linear portion of curve) torque and angle control into yield with torque and angle monitoring (non-linear portion of curve).
Tension tightening control with torque and angle monitor.
Yield control for maximum joint integrity with torque and angle monitoring and full report capabilities
A smart fastening system can be a cost savings approach to your fastening needs by allowing the joints to be fastened to their best level of clamp load for maximum life in the field. As a result of proper tightening at the manufacturing and assembly level the warranty cost for after sale repairs can be kept low due to the higher level of quality assemblies in the beginning. A poorly fastened joint does not look any different than a quality fastened joint to the naked eye and therefore does not get the attention it should, consequently the joint gets into the customer's hands and eventually comes back as a warranty problem and an extra expense that could have been avoided.
Unfortunately quality is not always as tangible and visible as leather seats and total quality has to be introduced at every step of the design, manufacture and assembly process. Even the smallest of screws and the way they are fastened can have a large effect on the perceived quality of an assembled product. Consider the trim screws or the mounting screws for the i.p. of an automobile, if they are not assembled properly you can end up with a squeak or rattle. That alone reduces the perceived quality by a big factor.
Now consider the really important joints such as the safety critical or the 'walk home critical'. These can include the suspension , steering and wheels as well as the engine and transmission assemblies. Probably the most important of the joints in the engine is the connecting rod joint. Of course all the joints in the engine are critical but the connecting rod joints must be fastened correctly or else the engine can fly apart, literally!! The connecting rods are usually manufactured in a two step process; the caps are sawed from the rod and the caps and rod ends are machined then fastened together and the bearing hole is bored and honed. The fasteners are removed and the bearing shells are inserted and the rod assembly is fastened to the crankshaft. If the fastening is not adequate at either of these stations the chances for a non uniform oil thickness or the chances of an egg shaped hole is highly probable. These conditions alone can lead to a scored crank, spun bearing or even worse - a blown engine. Internal engine repairs and replacements are very expensive, both in monetary value and in customer satisfaction value.
The joints in the engine assembly that demand particular care are 1) the connecting rod to crankshaft; 2) the main caps to the block or the main girdle to block depending on the design; 3) the flywheel to the crankshaft; 4) the camshaft bearing strap joint, again depending on the design; 5) the head to block joint which is probably the most interactive and sensitive joint in the engine; 6) the cam driving sprocket mounting; 7) the front damper or hub to crankshaft joint which in some engines is also the oil pump driver; 8) the manual clutch to flywheel mounting. These joints can be considered as both safety critical and walk home critical. I don't have to illustrate what could be the result of a blown engine due to a loose connecting rod bolt in rush hour traffic in Detroit or any other large city.
The other critical joints that demand proper fastening are the suspension and steering components. All the fasteners that hold engine cradles to the body, the engine mounting, the axle mounting and wheel mounting all deserve the best type of fastening that can be afforded at the initial assembly point. I will repeat from the beginning that quality is not always as easy to see as leather seats but a trouble free car assembly and subsequent 100,000 mile satisfied customer is definitely a reward for the built in quality through quality fastening.
There is no doubt that sophisticated fastening equipment is more expensive than the old style air driven reaction torque nutrunners, but the times have changed drastically and so have the customers expectations for the most value and quality for their money, so investment must be made to deliver the best possible product to the customer. Assembly is the final stage of manufacture and this is where the quality of all the parts have to come together in the final product build. The engine was assembled the best way and the body and chassis were assembled the best way now all the components come together and the final step is to marry everything together using the best fastening that can help give that build the quality the customer looks for and deserves for his money. This is why it is economically feasible to invest in smart fastening systems.
It is economic suicide to not build in quality, the systems are available now and are affordable. The fastening strategies are the state of the art and joint analysis is available to determine the fastening strategy that will best give quality fastening to your joints.
George Lorimer, Retired.
G.M. Powertrain Fastener Lab.
tl;dr Torque wrenches are terribly inaccurate. +-40%
They measure torque well, but that doesn't correlate well to what actually matters.
Directly measuring preload requires very expensive equipment, which they have in Hiroshima.
Some of the best tools are simply unavailable to us. Odious ideas often inspire incredulity.