EricMeyer

Just out of curiousity, what are you defining as engine failure and how is this related to clogged OMP system?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Well an eventual loss in compression if no oil is being injected due to failed oil injectors or clogged lines. Basically my lines were clogged and the oil injectors faulty so no oil was being injected. Had I not been premixing 1oz per gallon the apex seals would wear prematurely and resulting in a loss of compression.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Have you disassembled the engine and looked at the apex seals and the rotor housings in question?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

No, the engine only has 25k on it and I have premixed since day one so on my particular engine I don't think any damage was done due to the amount I was premixing. But, but if I had not been premixing, then the apex seals would not have been receiving any lubrication. I have been reading and it appears that the oil injectors failing is not so uncommon. I'm not sure how different an FC or FD oil injector is from a S1 injector but I have read that they fail the vacuum test pretty often. and I know opinions vary on who we consider to be knowledgeable but Rotary Resurrection also stated he has seen them fail often.

This is just my theory, it's open for discussion. I'm all for learning.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Mazda updated the original part to B already

N3H1-14-660B
N3H1-14-670B
N3H1-14-680B
N3H1-14-690B

and we all know Mazda won't update their parts without reasons, either cost reduction (which usually means crap) and/or parts improvements. Lets hope its the latter.


Should I try to do the SS line or just get some stock replacements ? ... hmm decision decisions ... stock line is not "that" expensive imo ... hmm ....

EricMeyer

I'm with you so far. So the oil injectors or lines are clogged and this leads to X which ultimately leads to loss of compression. Can you help me with the X's? Trying to understand your logic my friend. Please be as specific as you like.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

How long do you suppose it would have taken for engine damage, low compression, or performance issues to evidence themselves?

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

May I address this point with my own experience(s)?
If so, I will post up later today/tonight as I have shipments to make and an insurance premium to pay so we can open the new shop this weekend.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

If the lines are clogged and/or the injectors are faulty, there would be no lubrication to the apex seals other than whatever lubrication gasoline offers. No lubrication to the Apex seals means they wear out prematurely. I realize on the S1 Renny we are already short one oil injector and low OMP rates were initially blamed for failures and mazda adjusted that although that didn't really seem to help at all. At least that is my understanding.

Now this is the question of the day. 10,000 miles? 20,000 miles? I guess it would really depend on the driving conditions. I don't imagine no lubrication to the apex seals would be good on a long hot track day. But then I know that you have stated previously that you have driven with your SOHN reservoir empty and your engine is ok.

EricMeyer

Always my friend. Can't wait to hear about the new shop too.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Wow. That is a MASSIVE misunderstanding of flow vs. pressure.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised since it is the same science - whether it is before or after the throttle body doesn't matter.

In any event, it is absolutely an atmo reference whether you agree or not.
The OMP, filler neck breather and JAB all need to see atmospheric pressure and nothing less or more.
You should measure it for yourself so that you aren't left behind should the information there be needed for a future project of yours.

EDIT - BTW, just because there is suction on the line doesn't mean it is referenced to vacuum. It just means it is creating a vacuum because where the line goes is at a lower pressure. The JAB is a good example of that.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

If you are daily driving hitting 9k here and there you most likely wouldn't get any noticeable damage for quite some time.

It would just start wearing away on the housings and the seals until compression was so low it wouldn't hold idle.

There wouldn't be a dramatic breaking of the apex seal just a gradual wearing away until the apex seal reached its spring limit from housing damage and seal damage.

That's what I think at least.

EricMeyer

Two questions please:

1. Can we say that your theory has the Apex Seals wearing out?

2. Does the title of your thread imply this may be the main reason why engines lose compression and go to the Mazda rebuild facility?

Seeking to understand. Thanks.

terch1

iTrader: (2)

Good point shady but how the vehicle is driven also plays a contributing factor. Its not just how often the vehicle is driven.

shadycrew31

iTrader: (6)

Yea when I said daily driven I meant light and for medium to short distances...

Guess that doesn't apply to you road rage speed demons... lol.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

1. Yes, I think that is safe to say that if the oil injectors are not injecting and the lines are clogged the the Apex seals will wear prematurely. Unless premixing is happening.

2. Does it? I am looking for discussion on the idea. I don't think it is the main reason for failures, I think there are a few reasons a series 1 engine rarely makes it over a 100k on the original engine. I personally think that many do not monitor oil consumption and would not even realize if their car was burning oil or not. If they have a situation where their OMP lines and/or injectors have failed, their engine would fail eventually do to the lack of lubrication to the apex seals.


I feel like I am repeating myself . Do you agree or disagree that if no oil is being injected that it would cause the engine to eventually fail quicker than a normally functioning engine?


Thanks

terch1

iTrader: (2)

9krpmrx8 not that my opinion really amounts to anything but I totally agree with your theory. If oil was not needed to lubricate the internals such as the rotors, seals, and housings why would an oil metering pump be incorporated into the overall design. Furthermore why would Mazda have incorpoated another injection nozzle into the design for the series II. Not to mention the reflash to increase flow from the oil metering pump for the series I.

ASH8

OEM Cheaper on-line from a Mazda Dealer.

N3H1-14-660B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-670B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-680B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-690B Tube $39.62
N3H1-14-631B Nozzle $59.16ea

http://onlinemazdaparts.com/partloca...?siteid=214264

ASH8

Mate, they have always been a B 'iteration' (to use the felons word), there has never been any other used on production S1's or any parts super-session for this one...

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

really? hmm

Cuz I see the Original part, A, and B

well of course I can only buy B now, just saying.

ASH8

You are pretty much spot on with all your comments.

I am really surprise at the 'lack of knowledge' by someone who races and is telling us all about data and not to 'guess' anything without it (only when it suits).

I suggest owners go to their mechanics and ask, seeing they rebuild "so many" engines.

It has been my experience that most Racing Rotaries totally disconnect MOP or even S2 EMOP's, and add Oil to Fuel for lubrication only, but then again using Oil in fuel may be against Policy and Regulations at events and the teams may fail scrutineering by doing so...using oil in gas that is...or what we would call heavy pre-mixing.

Or perhaps they run both MOP's and Pre-Mixing?

But as Paul's (Mazmart) (where has he been lately??) engine builder supremo (Mr E), has relayed to us, the majority of Renesis that he has rebuilt has has abnormal wear of Apex Seals, and Eccentric Shaft Bearings...

For memory Mr E also did not like 5W20 oils period for ANY rotary, I wonder if he has changed his mind...another story.

EricMeyer

Most of you are probably unaware of this (I was too a few years ago). Mazda has a racer parts pricing program here in the States. Discounted pricing and super low shipment pricing. For example p/n N3H1-14-660B: $30.48 This is the first part number listed above or about a $9 savings.

The Mazda parts program is where some of you guys may end up one day if you go Club Racing or AutoXing. Most all Mazda Racers (not drivers) are aware of and enrolled in this program. There is no better pricing in the U.S. None. The pricing for pro drivers is quite a bit lower yet. Look into it or at least be more aware.

Link to the Mazda Racer program:

http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/registration.htm

ASH8

Yeah, I know what you mean, and you can put an A into on-line search and it will go to a B, but, trust me , I don't want to go with ALL the boring reasons, basically pre-production parts ORDER's list may have said an A but when car first arrives (sold), parts are usually at distributor and the Numbers can change from Japan. They order the A because they were told so, but.....arrives.

This is MMC Japan Series 1 complete (final) Parts list, A never existed.
These are also S1 Exclusive Parts.

ayrton012

Let see it again OD:

The oil nozzle receives the barometric pressure from the air hose to prevent the negative pressure from the engine being applied to the oil inlet. Also, a one-way check valve has been adopted to prevent oil from flowing out of the air hose side when the engine is under positive pressure.




1 Air hose side
2 One-way check valve
3 Oil inlet
4 Oil outlet
5 Housing side

Between the trottle's butterfly valve and the engine is vacuum. But there is atmo pres between the air cleaner and the throttle's butterfly valve. If there would be vacuum at the MOP nozzle's air intake pipe (1), the engine suck's out more oil from the MOP (3) than that is metering. With the atmospheric pressure on the nozzle's air intake (1), the engine's vacuum only sucks (4) the metered oil amount (pushing by the weak pressure of the MOP) and air from the air hose side (1).

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

If I get a chance this weekend I will write something up, it's pretty straight forward if you are mechanically inclined. You just have to take your time and not get frustrated.