Possible New Renesis Engine Failure Theory?
04-12-2013, 08:23 PM
#726
Update: I've only put on about 2000 miles since the October update, and have upped my premix to 1oz gallon just for insurance. Aaaaand, hasn't burned hardly any oil. So, I pulled the injectors again and 3 failed, 1 was borderline to the spec. The lines have nice clean oil in them, and they flow oil towards the injectors. I can confirm the lines have check valves in them too.
What surprised me was on the OMP side of the lines, the oil was pretty dirty around the bolts and the OMP surface. I'm going to pull it tomorrow and make sure the oil channels are clean in it. This surprised me because my car has never gone beyond 2k miles between oil changes, but if there is next to zero oil.flow, that would do it I guess.
Plan is to replace all 4 lines and injectors.
What surprised me was on the OMP side of the lines, the oil was pretty dirty around the bolts and the OMP surface. I'm going to pull it tomorrow and make sure the oil channels are clean in it. This surprised me because my car has never gone beyond 2k miles between oil changes, but if there is next to zero oil.flow, that would do it I guess.
Plan is to replace all 4 lines and injectors.
Last edited by MikeTyson8MyKids; 04-12-2013 at 08:28 PM.
04-13-2013, 03:00 PM
#731
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Update: I've only put on about 2000 miles since the October update, and have upped my premix to 1oz gallon just for insurance. Aaaaand, hasn't burned hardly any oil. So, I pulled the injectors again and 3 failed, 1 was borderline to the spec. The lines have nice clean oil in them, and they flow oil towards the injectors. I can confirm the lines have check valves in them too.
What surprised me was on the OMP side of the lines, the oil was pretty dirty around the bolts and the OMP surface. I'm going to pull it tomorrow and make sure the oil channels are clean in it. This surprised me because my car has never gone beyond 2k miles between oil changes, but if there is next to zero oil.flow, that would do it I guess.
Plan is to replace all 4 lines and injectors.
What surprised me was on the OMP side of the lines, the oil was pretty dirty around the bolts and the OMP surface. I'm going to pull it tomorrow and make sure the oil channels are clean in it. This surprised me because my car has never gone beyond 2k miles between oil changes, but if there is next to zero oil.flow, that would do it I guess.
Plan is to replace all 4 lines and injectors.
My Rex was purchased new and I started premixing from 6.000 mls since new. Immediately after starting my up till then regular use of engine oil of 1 ltr per 3.500-4.000 kms "stopped".
My OMP oil lines were/are definitively not clogged.
After some time I once did read an article from a rotary aviation engine pilot, reporting that with their (heavy) usual premix of 1,5 oz per gallon (manufacturers prescription) the oil level in the engine is EVEN RAISING after some time in such a way that he has to tap some oil time by time. Obviously a part of the 2 stroke oil gets dissolved in the 4-stroke oil when heavy premixing. Later on I did read the same reports from another rotary pilot and from some other Rex drivers in Germany. I personally have exactly the same experience with 1,1 oz per gallon pus OMP in operation; I do not have to tap but can see that the level is little varying up and down; it look likes "there is no 4 stroke oil consumption at all" which actually is a wrong understanding, being the 4-stroke consumption replenished by a part of the 2-stroke oil.
04-13-2013, 03:54 PM
#732
I want to inform you about my personal experience regarding the aspect of increase to heavier premix and at the same time/instantly severe reduction of 4-stroke oil consumption on a 6000 mls car and other type of users:
My Rex was purchased new and I started premixing from 6.000 mls since new. Immediately after starting my up till then regular use of engine oil of 1 ltr per 3.500-4.000 kms "stopped".
My OMP oil lines were/are definitively not clogged.
After some time I once did read an article from a rotary aviation engine pilot, reporting that with their (heavy) usual premix of 1,5 oz per gallon (manufacturers prescription) the oil level in the engine is EVEN RAISING after some time in such a way that he has to tap some oil time by time. Obviously a part of the 2 stroke oil gets dissolved in the 4-stroke oil when heavy premixing. Later on I did read the same reports from another rotary pilot and from some other Rex drivers in Germany. I personally have exactly the same experience with 1,1 oz per gallon pus OMP in operation; I do not have to tap but can see that the level is little varying up and down; it look likes "there is no 4 stroke oil consumption at all" which actually is a wrong understanding, being the 4-stroke consumption replenished by a part of the 2-stroke oil.
My Rex was purchased new and I started premixing from 6.000 mls since new. Immediately after starting my up till then regular use of engine oil of 1 ltr per 3.500-4.000 kms "stopped".
My OMP oil lines were/are definitively not clogged.
After some time I once did read an article from a rotary aviation engine pilot, reporting that with their (heavy) usual premix of 1,5 oz per gallon (manufacturers prescription) the oil level in the engine is EVEN RAISING after some time in such a way that he has to tap some oil time by time. Obviously a part of the 2 stroke oil gets dissolved in the 4-stroke oil when heavy premixing. Later on I did read the same reports from another rotary pilot and from some other Rex drivers in Germany. I personally have exactly the same experience with 1,1 oz per gallon pus OMP in operation; I do not have to tap but can see that the level is little varying up and down; it look likes "there is no 4 stroke oil consumption at all" which actually is a wrong understanding, being the 4-stroke consumption replenished by a part of the 2-stroke oil.
WOW ! Not sure what to make of this ....
04-13-2013, 03:57 PM
#733
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Two questions:
- How is the 2-stroke getting into the 4-stroke?
- If the 2-stroke is only present in the fuel, and in very small ratios, most of the oil level increase should then be actually fuel, not oil. Was there an oil test done? What was the fuel %?
- How is the 2-stroke getting into the 4-stroke?
- If the 2-stroke is only present in the fuel, and in very small ratios, most of the oil level increase should then be actually fuel, not oil. Was there an oil test done? What was the fuel %?
04-13-2013, 04:44 PM
#734
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1) I do not know, both can be mixed together, probabely due to the heavier premix a part of the 2-stroke oil precipitates on the "colder" area's of the combustion chamber......I could imagine if you premix for instance 1:10 and the engine would just keep runnig, not all 2-stroke oil of the premix would be burned.
2) My ratio is approx 1:110 plus functional OMP; I could imagine that this heavy amount of 1,1 oz per gallon plus OMP can't be burned fully.
3) I doubt and do not smell fuel etc.
4) There was no oil test done.
Remarkable was that with my new car, regularly using 1 litre 4-stroke per 3000-4000 kms before, immediately after starting with premix 1:200 at 6.000 mls the 4-stroke oil consumption was reduced and after increasing to 1,1 oz per gallon "stopped" / level on engine-oildipstick did not descend any more.
I can not believe that accidentally at that very moment fuel started to be added to my 4-stroke oil.
Best regards,
Ruud
Last edited by Rudolph; 04-26-2013 at 02:53 AM.
04-13-2013, 05:39 PM
#736
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Agreed, I'm not doubting that you are seeing the problem you are, I just don't see how the 2 stroke premixed at 1:110 would increase the 4-stroke oil level by just the premix alone. For example, if indeed that is the increase, then if you had 1 liter increase, 0.3oz would be 2-stroke, 33.5oz would be gasoline. Since this is the 1:110 ratio of premix.
At 1:200, this shifts to 0.169oz of 2-stroke, 33.6oz of gasoline.
There is literally nothing in the engine that would separate the 2 stroke from the gasoline to produce an increase in the oil level that is entirely 2-stroke. 2-stroke will burn just like gasoline in the every hot combustion. There isn't any left behind from this, except as mixed with the unburnt gasoline, and it will remain in the same ratio as you premixed.
There is also nothing in the engine that would then send this mixture to the crankcase. Example how a rotary engine is put together, and you can see there isn't any "drainage" from the combustion chamber to the oil pan. (unless your engine physically has a hole due to damage).
Your 2-stroke isn't what is increasing the oil in the pan. I would recommend getting an oil test to see what substance is being added that would increase the level.
At 1:200, this shifts to 0.169oz of 2-stroke, 33.6oz of gasoline.
There is literally nothing in the engine that would separate the 2 stroke from the gasoline to produce an increase in the oil level that is entirely 2-stroke. 2-stroke will burn just like gasoline in the every hot combustion. There isn't any left behind from this, except as mixed with the unburnt gasoline, and it will remain in the same ratio as you premixed.
There is also nothing in the engine that would then send this mixture to the crankcase. Example how a rotary engine is put together, and you can see there isn't any "drainage" from the combustion chamber to the oil pan. (unless your engine physically has a hole due to damage).
Your 2-stroke isn't what is increasing the oil in the pan. I would recommend getting an oil test to see what substance is being added that would increase the level.
04-13-2013, 06:17 PM
#739
Gasoline dilution is pretty common, the oil seals are not just to keep the oil in. 2stroke is going to remain liquid (and unburnt) longer than gasoline because that's what it's there for and if you are heavily premixing some of it might get into the oil.
Just my take on it.
Just my take on it.
04-13-2013, 06:25 PM
#740
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Agreed, I just don't buy that he is getting 1 liter of 2 stroke into his 4-stroke every 3,000-4,000kms. Maybe that of fluid that also contains 2-stroke, but not "2-stroke".
An oil analysis should show the culprit.
An oil analysis should show the culprit.
04-13-2013, 06:30 PM
#741
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There is literally nothing in the engine that would separate the 2 stroke from the gasoline to produce an increase in the oil level that is entirely 2-stroke. 2-stroke will burn just like gasoline in the every hot combustion. I would recommend getting an oil test to see what substance is being added that would increase the level.
I could imagine that when burning a mixture of oil and gasoline the gasoline-molecules will burn relatively "first/earlier/more quick" as the oil-molecules (all beiing in a milli-second environment or whatsoever) and therefore enabling some oil to remain if all gasoline is burned already?.
In a piston-engine the 4-stroke oil is (besides the crankshaft etc.) also lubricating the contact between piston and cylinder-wall and as far as I know both in the upward compression stroke as in the downward expansion stroke where the burning/flaming gas from the ignition is not completely burning the 4-stroke oil-layer , since if yes there would be no lubrication film for the upward stroke any more.
Imo in a piston-engine some 4-stroke oil survives during the combustion in the expanding combustion area, indicating that this is similar in a rotary-engine.
Anyway, I just ordered a self-test set enabling an individual (indicative) test for evt. (non)presence of water, fuel and carbon as well as the general condition of the engine-oil.
Thanks and best regards,
Ruud
PS: Thanks for your opinion, Harlan
Last edited by Rudolph; 04-13-2013 at 06:33 PM.
04-13-2013, 07:07 PM
#743
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i noticed that when i started pre-mixing *(2004 rx8 w/92k miles) my 4stroke oil consumption has pretty much dropped to nothing...
i have been running 8oz on a 10gallon fill up except for last tank i put 12oz for 10gals..... *(won't do this again as the car doesn't seem to like it with the heavier mix....)
i am now actively hunting a sohn adaptor *(preferably used .. gotta save that cash..) but if no luck soon will buy a new one *(when lcwmbo ain't paying attention... lol..)
i read this thread *(all 30pages) thinking that my OMP lines were plugged or not flowing well enough...
i was hoping to find a pic how-to on this with all the tips and tricks for easy going.... but alas no..
thanks to the OP for the thread and all who posted helpful info in it...
i have been running 8oz on a 10gallon fill up except for last tank i put 12oz for 10gals..... *(won't do this again as the car doesn't seem to like it with the heavier mix....)
i am now actively hunting a sohn adaptor *(preferably used .. gotta save that cash..) but if no luck soon will buy a new one *(when lcwmbo ain't paying attention... lol..)
i read this thread *(all 30pages) thinking that my OMP lines were plugged or not flowing well enough...
i was hoping to find a pic how-to on this with all the tips and tricks for easy going.... but alas no..
thanks to the OP for the thread and all who posted helpful info in it...
04-13-2013, 07:36 PM
#744
04-13-2013, 09:21 PM
#745
We have oil reports from multiple setups, turbos, Sohn, Stock.
To address the topic of discussion, 2 cycle oil is not getting into the oil. The oil levels are not increasing.
Either the oil was not measured properly or the oil was measured when extremely hot or extremely cold.
The OMP flows on throttle and load. if you putt around the city never going past 5k and do lots of idling you will burn very little oil through the OMP.
If premix is magically returning itself to the oil pan then you would imagine the OMP oil would as well since it doesn't burn off as quickly. Which would also mean that our engines would never burn oil and we would not be putting in quart every other fill-up.
Make sense yet? I can throw together a more elaborate description if needed.
To address the topic of discussion, 2 cycle oil is not getting into the oil. The oil levels are not increasing.
Either the oil was not measured properly or the oil was measured when extremely hot or extremely cold.
The OMP flows on throttle and load. if you putt around the city never going past 5k and do lots of idling you will burn very little oil through the OMP.
If premix is magically returning itself to the oil pan then you would imagine the OMP oil would as well since it doesn't burn off as quickly. Which would also mean that our engines would never burn oil and we would not be putting in quart every other fill-up.
Make sense yet? I can throw together a more elaborate description if needed.
04-13-2013, 09:51 PM
#746
Rockie Mountain Newbie
I would bet what's actually happening is that the large amount of 2 stroke mix in the fuel is clogging up the oil injectors, which is preventing any oil from being burned.
Clean the oil injectors and decrease the premix, and I bet all will be fine.
BC.
Clean the oil injectors and decrease the premix, and I bet all will be fine.
BC.
04-14-2013, 09:33 AM
#750
Why doesn't someone just try to run the engine for 1k miles without premix and 1k miles with premix, and measure the oil level? Of course with similar driving style...
Also, please pardon me for this stupid question, but what is the best way to check oil level? (hot/cold...etc...) I always feel like I cannot get a consistent reading on this car.
Also, please pardon me for this stupid question, but what is the best way to check oil level? (hot/cold...etc...) I always feel like I cannot get a consistent reading on this car.