Opening a renesis with 5281 miles
07-17-2009, 07:55 AM
#76
The problem is that mazda injects a quantity of oil directly into the chamber, while the 4oz is mixed up in the fuel, so very diluted. So the percentage in that area is pretty different than the total injected percentage. Don't know if you get my point.
As usual anyway we need to consider the use that we do! 4 oz may suffice in a daily driver, 8oz may be the right amount for track days etc.
As usual anyway we need to consider the use that we do! 4 oz may suffice in a daily driver, 8oz may be the right amount for track days etc.
07-17-2009, 06:44 PM
#77
Super Moderator
hah, last time i checked i owned a RENESIS I....
Lets see, several Renesis I engines went over the 100,000 mile mark with absolutely no premix. Most egines die of carbon death and not seal wear. Also, if you actually bother to figure out how much oil mazda injects, you'd realize an additional 4oz is very significant - but don't let logic or facts get in the way of your opinion.
Lets see, several Renesis I engines went over the 100,000 mile mark with absolutely no premix. Most egines die of carbon death and not seal wear. Also, if you actually bother to figure out how much oil mazda injects, you'd realize an additional 4oz is very significant - but don't let logic or facts get in the way of your opinion.
Most engines that are dying have poor compressions, yes carbon is a contributor, but the Apex seals in the middle are showing severe concave wear, where NO MOP oil reaches.
Only until one of the last PCM flashes cranking up MOP feed to near max, but was all too late, still it did not reach the centre of Apex, hence the change on 09's, that throws your LOGIC out the window, why did Mazda make this change then.
The ONLY WAY TO GET OIL IN CENTRE OF APEX is to PRE-MIX and 4 OZ is not enough...PERIOD....6 oz Min.
Please put your reply to Kevin who is a Mazda Master Tech...I am done.
07-18-2009, 10:44 PM
#79
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/\Pwned?
I premix using Amsoil Interceptor and so far it's doing it's job. I use about 4oz (usually .5 more
) and I notice that the car get's better mileage and it's much smoother. Than again, I haven't been to the track yet, only a dyno
I premix using Amsoil Interceptor and so far it's doing it's job. I use about 4oz (usually .5 more
) and I notice that the car get's better mileage and it's much smoother. Than again, I haven't been to the track yet, only a dyno
07-18-2009, 10:45 PM
#80
Super Moderator
Wow, a big 3....thank you, certainly not the norm.
And on 193,000 miles with no Ignition coils??...just amazing.
Rotaries, as you know like long distance work..the longer the better, short trips are a killer.
As I have said before, why did Mazda add two oil nozzles for centre lubrication of Apex Seals in 09's one for each rotor?, because whatever rate they cranked the MOP to it was not reaching, hence worn apex seals in the centre like nycqps's.
From "Teknics" certified Mazda Tech..
Speculation? a metal seal against a metal sealing surface with insufficient lubrication on said metal surface will cause loss of ability to seal over time. This is a fact.
All Mazda OMP Systems have provided insufficient quality and insufficient distribution of lubrication of the rotor housings in ALL rotary motors. This is a fact.
Premixing 2-stroke equally distributes a protective oil layer along the entire rotor housing surface as well as the rotor and it's seals. This is a fact.
If you'd like to argue the above facts I can begin snapping pictures of non-premixed motor's rotor housings vs. premixed engines rotor housings after tear-down. The evidence is easily visible, although I'd prefer to show it to you in person so that I may bear witness to your head jumping up your own ***.
as for the "expert" comment....I have my official mazda rotary engine and rotary engine management systems certification, do you?
BTW: still not saying the OMP or not premixing caused this *specific* problem...not sure exactly how we got where we are in this topic but whatever, just expressing the lackluster quality of the OMP as a whole and providing reasons/proof that it is the OMP itself not it's programmed flow amount/time/etc that is a rotary problem
kevin.
ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power. I think i found a slogan.
AND
The same rule applies to premix that applies to fuel. You want good clean premix. The oil will not clog your fuel filters, the oil can break down into just as small a particle as fuel, and is easier to push so it puts no excess strain on the pump either. Nevermind the fact that the ratio of oil particles to fuel particles will be at least near 256:1 if not above. Hell there are tons of 2-stroke engines out there that HAVE to put 2-stroke in their gas, and generally in much larger ratios (16:1 etc)....they dont have special fuel filters why would the rx need one?
Carbon deposits do NOT occur because of premix, they are PREVENTED by premix. The premix does NOT BURN, if it did you'd get tons of blue smoke. I've gone into detail about it before but basically fuel is 100x more combustible then premix oil. If the temperatures and conditions inside the combustion chamber are able to ignite the premix then something is seriously wrong. All the premix does is fully coat the rotor and rotor housing surface in a film of oil so as to PREVENT carbon from being able to cling to any surfaces. Again reference the fact that there ARE 2-stroke motors in the world, none of which suffer from carbonization problems internally and again they run larger ratios of oil:gas.
nevermind the 30+years of rotary enthusiasts running premix and not noticing either symptom you mention as a regular cause of premixing. I've been premixing my vehicles for 10 years now and have yet to see one downside of premix. Hell i love cracking open a motor to rebuild or refresh after a few seasons and seeing a bright shiny housing surface staring back at me rather then a blackened, carboned, burned surface which will need replacement or if not replaced will result in loss of compression and therefore power.
Nothing except possibly the system i described, can beat the results of premixing, nothing.
edit: and in addition, robrecht is correct, injecting dirty, burned, used, and basically damaged 4-stroke oil into your motor is a bad thing. Nevermind the fact that the way it is "injected" is by dripping small drops into an engine spinning up to 9k rpm, thats 54,000r/sec try dripping a little droplet of water on something spinning that fast and tell me what type of distribution of fluid you notice, ill tell you right now it's going to be a thin, undistributed line of fluid, the same results you see on the interior surface of the rotor housings when rebuilding. Add to that people trying to stretch oil changes from 3k to 5k+ miles and the situation quickly deteriorates into havoc. The reason your motor oil turns black is because there are contaminants in it and it has been broken down, when this oil goes into your motor and is heated the oil survives, the contaminants burn into the rotor housings and rotor itself. Transference of contamination is the technical term.
And on 193,000 miles with no Ignition coils??...just amazing.
Rotaries, as you know like long distance work..the longer the better, short trips are a killer.
As I have said before, why did Mazda add two oil nozzles for centre lubrication of Apex Seals in 09's one for each rotor?, because whatever rate they cranked the MOP to it was not reaching, hence worn apex seals in the centre like nycqps's.
From "Teknics" certified Mazda Tech..
Speculation? a metal seal against a metal sealing surface with insufficient lubrication on said metal surface will cause loss of ability to seal over time. This is a fact.
All Mazda OMP Systems have provided insufficient quality and insufficient distribution of lubrication of the rotor housings in ALL rotary motors. This is a fact.
Premixing 2-stroke equally distributes a protective oil layer along the entire rotor housing surface as well as the rotor and it's seals. This is a fact.
If you'd like to argue the above facts I can begin snapping pictures of non-premixed motor's rotor housings vs. premixed engines rotor housings after tear-down. The evidence is easily visible, although I'd prefer to show it to you in person so that I may bear witness to your head jumping up your own ***.
as for the "expert" comment....I have my official mazda rotary engine and rotary engine management systems certification, do you?
BTW: still not saying the OMP or not premixing caused this *specific* problem...not sure exactly how we got where we are in this topic but whatever, just expressing the lackluster quality of the OMP as a whole and providing reasons/proof that it is the OMP itself not it's programmed flow amount/time/etc that is a rotary problem
kevin.
ignorance is bliss, knowledge is power. I think i found a slogan.
AND
The same rule applies to premix that applies to fuel. You want good clean premix. The oil will not clog your fuel filters, the oil can break down into just as small a particle as fuel, and is easier to push so it puts no excess strain on the pump either. Nevermind the fact that the ratio of oil particles to fuel particles will be at least near 256:1 if not above. Hell there are tons of 2-stroke engines out there that HAVE to put 2-stroke in their gas, and generally in much larger ratios (16:1 etc)....they dont have special fuel filters why would the rx need one?
Carbon deposits do NOT occur because of premix, they are PREVENTED by premix. The premix does NOT BURN, if it did you'd get tons of blue smoke. I've gone into detail about it before but basically fuel is 100x more combustible then premix oil. If the temperatures and conditions inside the combustion chamber are able to ignite the premix then something is seriously wrong. All the premix does is fully coat the rotor and rotor housing surface in a film of oil so as to PREVENT carbon from being able to cling to any surfaces. Again reference the fact that there ARE 2-stroke motors in the world, none of which suffer from carbonization problems internally and again they run larger ratios of oil:gas.
nevermind the 30+years of rotary enthusiasts running premix and not noticing either symptom you mention as a regular cause of premixing. I've been premixing my vehicles for 10 years now and have yet to see one downside of premix. Hell i love cracking open a motor to rebuild or refresh after a few seasons and seeing a bright shiny housing surface staring back at me rather then a blackened, carboned, burned surface which will need replacement or if not replaced will result in loss of compression and therefore power.
Nothing except possibly the system i described, can beat the results of premixing, nothing.
edit: and in addition, robrecht is correct, injecting dirty, burned, used, and basically damaged 4-stroke oil into your motor is a bad thing. Nevermind the fact that the way it is "injected" is by dripping small drops into an engine spinning up to 9k rpm, thats 54,000r/sec try dripping a little droplet of water on something spinning that fast and tell me what type of distribution of fluid you notice, ill tell you right now it's going to be a thin, undistributed line of fluid, the same results you see on the interior surface of the rotor housings when rebuilding. Add to that people trying to stretch oil changes from 3k to 5k+ miles and the situation quickly deteriorates into havoc. The reason your motor oil turns black is because there are contaminants in it and it has been broken down, when this oil goes into your motor and is heated the oil survives, the contaminants burn into the rotor housings and rotor itself. Transference of contamination is the technical term.
Last edited by ASH8; 07-18-2009 at 11:09 PM.
07-18-2009, 11:02 PM
#81
Super Moderator
AND
premix from new will eliminate a large factor in the most common non-detonation or other internal "catastrophic" event. The motor obviously still has limitless ways of blowing up as someone above said, the variables are nearly infinite, but premixing will help make some of those variables harmless.
Premixing allows the oil to be mixed with your oil, the fuel injector mists the oil and fills the majority of the combustion chamber with this vapor of oil&gas. The oil is heavier and more resistant to the temps it is about the see during combustion and it will simply build up along all the surfaces of the rotor and housings as it's pushed to the walls by combustion. The oil doesn't burn AND fully covers the interior surface of the motor. This is also why over-premixing generally isn't a problem. Also since the oil doesn't burn it doesn't effect smog.
READ THIS THREAD....MORE PRE-MIX IS BETTER THAN NOT ENOUGH..
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...35#post2951135
Here's what it comes down to: adding premix to your car IS PROVEN to increase engine internal lubricity and overall condition and health of the motor. There are absolutely NO DOWNSIDES to premixing. So why wouldn't you premix? It's the only mod that is all positive no negative and only requires you to purchase oil and pour in tank...you can leave the OMP system functioning normally and still premix. The rotary engine is special, and it is VERY needy, but it produces amazing results when you provide it with what it needs. If you can honestly read that sentence at the beginning of this paragraph and say "nah i dont want to premix" then you're, well i dont even know but it would be ridiculous.
premix from new will eliminate a large factor in the most common non-detonation or other internal "catastrophic" event. The motor obviously still has limitless ways of blowing up as someone above said, the variables are nearly infinite, but premixing will help make some of those variables harmless.
Premixing allows the oil to be mixed with your oil, the fuel injector mists the oil and fills the majority of the combustion chamber with this vapor of oil&gas. The oil is heavier and more resistant to the temps it is about the see during combustion and it will simply build up along all the surfaces of the rotor and housings as it's pushed to the walls by combustion. The oil doesn't burn AND fully covers the interior surface of the motor. This is also why over-premixing generally isn't a problem. Also since the oil doesn't burn it doesn't effect smog.
READ THIS THREAD....MORE PRE-MIX IS BETTER THAN NOT ENOUGH..
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...35#post2951135
Here's what it comes down to: adding premix to your car IS PROVEN to increase engine internal lubricity and overall condition and health of the motor. There are absolutely NO DOWNSIDES to premixing. So why wouldn't you premix? It's the only mod that is all positive no negative and only requires you to purchase oil and pour in tank...you can leave the OMP system functioning normally and still premix. The rotary engine is special, and it is VERY needy, but it produces amazing results when you provide it with what it needs. If you can honestly read that sentence at the beginning of this paragraph and say "nah i dont want to premix" then you're, well i dont even know but it would be ridiculous.
Last edited by ASH8; 07-18-2009 at 11:19 PM.
07-19-2009, 02:12 AM
#82
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07-19-2009, 04:03 AM
#83
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I guess he is meaning the Apex Seals 6 x 9000 RPM = 54,000 revolutions (Total 2 chambers), the Apex Seals journey on a few drops of oil...and the "distribution area" of engine oil over the inner Housing surface.
07-20-2009, 02:32 AM
#89
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