Maestro

Its the standard Mazda 5W-30.

But it does have rotary additives and is the best oil to use on RE's !

Apart from the mazdaSpeed stuff which is for Rotaries only !

bureau13

Please tell me, what exactly is a "rotary additive."

jds

Maestro

?????? i DIDN'T MAKE IT

Maybe it has those little cartoon rotors with the hand and legs and smiley faces like on the mazdaspeed T-Shirt.

LOL

What additives does piston stuff have ????

I don't think oil companies give away there special additives ?

bureau13

Damn, I had this vision of you stooped over a big cauldron of boiling oil. :-D

Seriously though...special rotary additives? I'm highly skeptical of this. I've seen enough marketing speak to know it when I see it!

jds

wakeech

there might be less anti-foamants or additives which enhance its combustability... speculation, but these are the sorts of magical things a chemist can do; it seems extremely plausible that an oil can be developed for a wankel engine which wouldn't work nearly as well in a piston engine.

bureau13

Maybe. When did this stuff first appear? I could be wrong, but I don't remember any of my previous RX-7s (I've had 3) manuals making any reference to special oil, other than the well-known "don't use synthetics" mantra. If its actually more combustable, it should be a testable, measurable trait, and you would think Mazda would be trumpeting that data. If they spent these alleged millions developing it, you would think they would want people to buy it. I don't know, I haven't really seen that happening. Of course, I've avoided Mazda dealers like the plague since all the rotary mechanics bolted when the FD went away! Personally, being the skeptical and cynical person that I am, I believe the "marketing breakthrough" explanation. I could be wrong of course. I just wouldn't bet much money on it :-)

jds

wakeech

i'm a skeptic too: i was only saying it's possible that this oil was developed as such.

...uh, when??? i've seen (very expensive) cans of it with the 787B colours all over them, so quite a while i imagine.

Maestro

I'll talk to the technicians here if not I'll talk to my man at R & D @ Mazda Japan !!

Quick_lude

10 gets you 1 that this "Mazda 5w30 special rotary oil" is just a rebadged Castrol, Quaker State or whatever else.. Unless someone proves with a chemical data sheet that there is an additive that benefits rotary engines..

Btw, would the superior cold flow properties of synthetic oils be advantageous in a rotary engine? They are very much in a regular piston engine..

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

newbie here... been reading for awhile though. I actually worked (co-op) for almost a year in the ExxonMobil Research labs where they develop all these oils.


I'll first say I have never personally seen a rotary on a testing stand, but I have a lot of knowledge about the synthetic oils. First, they do offer superior performance with respect to friction and temp extremes, and pretty much every other aspect. That is a fact.

I'm just reading along here and there are a few things I don't really get...

In a piston engine, oil does get burned in combustion (as much as a quart in 2000 miles in some engines even without problems) as the oil film on the side of the cylinders gets burned off. This has never caused a problem with piston engines. In fact, sythetics burn cleaner then conventional oils due to the fact synthetics are much more refined. All my time working at XOM I have never heard of ash problems in SYNTHETIC oils, rather the other way around. In order for a synthetic to be a true synthetic, it has a PAO chemical structure which allows for no impurities to exist. All the oils formulated MUST be compatible with catalytic converters when they burn off in order to be certified - this is the reason AMSOIL oils are not certified but I won't get into that here. Currently there is a ton of focus in the diesel market for synthetic oils because they will be needed in order for engines to pass the upcomming very strict Euro emissions laws. Now it is true the synthetics resist burnoff better then dino oils. However, this usually refers to the oil boiling off and not being injected into the combustion process.

Also, regular piston engines experience gas dilution. Gas dilution is actually one of the biggest problems even in piston engines. Again though, synthetics offer better protection against gas dilution as the gas is a bit less soluable in the synthetic oils.



If you have any questions, Mobil has a tech service e-mail and phone number... just check the website, its listed somewhere. I know in fact the line is manned by people who know what they are talking about and if they don't know the answer they find someone that does!

Maestro

Its not a piston engine though :P

wakeech

welcome pr0ber!! :D

glad to see someone with first hand knowledge here...

anyways, i'd love to hear more about the whole AMSOIL issue, 'cause i'm not a big oil officianado...

one thing that doesn't make sense though: you say synthetics burn "cleaner", but resist burning better??
just to clarify the problem with oil combustion in rotaries, is that the apex seals coke up quite badly if the oil isn't burning well... you say that it does fine in the cats, which is good, but the whole of the inside of the engine is swept: almost no surface inside a wankel isn't sealed off from another area in the combustion chamber(s)... this, and the strange shapes of all the volumes in the engine, creates a lot of cool zones, which i suppose would create an environment which has a greater capacity to varnish or coke up oil in the wrong places (anywhere)...
the only problem that might arise from "dirty" or "impure" oils would be on the pollution side, unless there are things suspended in "less refined" mineral oils which would not only pollute but create bad-black-crud...
???

Synergy

This is from the Mobile 1 website <A href="http://www.mobil1.com/products/faq.jsp?catId=18"><U>FAQ</A></U>

Will the use of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ void my new-car warranty?

With the exception of the Mazda rotary engine (Mazda does not recommend anysynthetic motor oils for its rotary-engine vehicles), the use of Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ will not void new-car warranties. Mobil 1 with SuperSyn™ exceeds the API and ILSAC engine oil service requirements of all new-car manufacturers, both import and domestic. If in doubt, always check your vehicle owner's manual or contact your vehicle's manufacturer.

Quick_lude

It would help if you quote the whole paragraph like this:

"Btw, would the superior cold flow properties of synthetic oils be advantageous in a rotary engine? They are very much in a regular piston engine"

Instead of quoting just one sentence out of context.

Let me translate.. the cold flow properties of synthetic oil are great for piston engines. Would these properties be as desired in a rotary engine. Better?

Maestro

Well this is what I got told.

One type of fully Synthetic oil swells up a oil seal in the engine (Can't remeber which one?) The oil ????

Can't remember that either ?

But this is the reason behind Mazda saying not to use synthetics. I've run Semi's with only the following results:

I ran Castrol Protec Semi Syn in my FC RX-7 LM. Had no problem but it did go through it quite qucikly.

I then moved to Penz Semi on the FD which was okay good oil pressure but still had consomtion probs.

Now I use the Mazda 5W-30 in the FD. And its the best oil by far.

I get really good oil pressure and it actually doesn't have consumption issues !!!!

Thats my 0.02c :D

Hope it helps

Quick_lude

But this doesn't make any sense still.. I thought the rotary engine HAD to consume oil as per design...?? Unless you mean excessive consumption?

wakeech

i thought once you started to use synthetic lubricants that you couldn't go back to mineral oils, as the "conditioning" effect (the oil does in fact saturate the seals, which contributes to help stop leaks) of the synthetic would be lost and you'd end up with leaky seals... this isn't a problem with semi-synthetic oil??

Quick_lude

You can go back to mineral oil after synthetics. The biggest issue would be switching to a synthetic oil on a high km engine that has only seen dino juice throughout its life. Since there is crud built up from the dino juice on the seals, the synth will slowly clean that off and the seals could start leaking.

wakeech

ah, ok. spiffy.

TerenceT

what's the diff between mineral oil and dino juice?

and i thought Mobil 1 is semi syn now?

Quick_lude

Commonly mineral oil and dino juice referr to the same thing, ie Group II or III based oil. Group II is the "regular" stuff, Group III is severly hydrocracked "semi-synth".
Group IV is the good stuff based on PAO or ESTER basestocks which Mobil1, Amsoil, Redline, etc..