Official Synthetic Oil for the rx8!!!?
08-07-2009, 08:19 AM
#26
08-07-2009, 09:15 AM
#27
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Or you could simply get one of these, avoid all the guessing about what's actually in some random syn oil and why it's there. All you need do is read the specs. The formulation of these oils meets the performance goals for the oil that people say they want for their rotary engine. Here in plain English ...
Idemitsu Racing Rotary Engine Oil 10W-30 and 20W-50 (Full Synthetic)
http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/per...g/idemitsu.htm
With the precise base oil mix of PolyAlphaOlephins and PolyEsters, Idemitsu Rotary Engine Oils are able to minimize deposits on your apex seals.
Allows for better sealing of the chamber, facilitating more power generation.
Extends the life of turbochargers by reducing bearing coking.
Specially developed additives facilitate even tooth load on the front stationary gear to allow for higher loads and higher RPM.
Premium anti-wear agents create a strong film between the main bearings and the eccentric shaft, reducing metal-to-metal contact and minimizing bearing wear.
Developed to reduce entrained gas generation. Entrained gases reduce the oils ability to prevent metal-on-metal contact, thereby increasing main bearing wear.
Includes Molybdenum as a friction modifier. This compound reacts with the metal surfaces to create a low-shear boundary. The low shear characteristic reduces friction, increasing efficiency and power output.
http://www.rotorsportsracing.com/per...g/idemitsu.htm
- Formulated Specifically For High Performance Rotary Engines
- Contains Special Molybdenum Agents to Reduce Friction, Which Increases Horsepower & Torque
- Improved Sealing Performance of the chamber, facilitating more power generation
- Minimizes Exhaust Port Clogging
- Superior Shear Stability
- Exceptional Wear Protection & Durability to protect main bearing and eccentric shaft
- Extends the life of turbochargers by reducing bearing coking
- Contains special molybdenum agents to reduce friction, which increases horsepower & torque
With the precise base oil mix of PolyAlphaOlephins and PolyEsters, Idemitsu Rotary Engine Oils are able to minimize deposits on your apex seals.
Allows for better sealing of the chamber, facilitating more power generation.
Extends the life of turbochargers by reducing bearing coking.
Specially developed additives facilitate even tooth load on the front stationary gear to allow for higher loads and higher RPM.
Premium anti-wear agents create a strong film between the main bearings and the eccentric shaft, reducing metal-to-metal contact and minimizing bearing wear.
Developed to reduce entrained gas generation. Entrained gases reduce the oils ability to prevent metal-on-metal contact, thereby increasing main bearing wear.
Includes Molybdenum as a friction modifier. This compound reacts with the metal surfaces to create a low-shear boundary. The low shear characteristic reduces friction, increasing efficiency and power output.
Last edited by Spin9k; 08-07-2009 at 09:17 AM.
08-07-2009, 09:34 AM
#28
wish I knew this a week ago so I could have asked the dealership about it when they were doing the oil change. I wonder if they even know it exists.
For ***** and giggles I did ask the guy about using synthetics and his exact wording was "absolutely not......"
For ***** and giggles I did ask the guy about using synthetics and his exact wording was "absolutely not......"
08-07-2009, 02:56 PM
#29
Registered
Or you could simply get one of these, avoid all the guessing about what's actually in some random syn oil and why it's there. All you need do is read the specs. The formulation of these oils meets the performance goals for the oil that people say they want for their rotary engine. Here in plain English ...
two things I do not like on Idemitsu.
1st the viscosity 10W is not so forgiving on cold start. Better a 0W or 5W
2nd It says "Racing". If it is only for Racing then better not use it for street use. I guess Dr Hass has justified way.
08-07-2009, 03:20 PM
#30
Forget about scientific facts for a bit.
Zillions of people, not just rotary, have been using heavy weight oil for decades without issues ... hell their engines last much longer than ANY of our engines today ...
back to scientific facts ...
even 20w oil will work as cold as 0f. Its heavier, but hey it still works !
and for the racing part ... I dont really cared. If its cheap and easy to get , I use it.
Just because it saids Racing doesnt mean its not good for Street use ... it just didnt go thru API testing. and when you have certain additive over the limit of API, you still wont get the certification, but does that mean its bad? nope.
08-07-2009, 03:49 PM
#31
Momentum Keeps Me Going
The pour point of an oil is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined. That's tech-talk which basically means that the pour point of an oil is the point at which it ceases to be "pourable".
Most petroleum oils have pour points in the range of -15 to -35 degrees F. That means that their borderline pumping temperature is, at best, around -15 degrees F and probably closer to 5 to 10 degrees F. So, if you're running a petroleum oil, don't expect to go out and start your car at 0 degrees and have it purr like a kitten. It's going to spit and sputter and kick and scream for a few minutes.
Synthetic oils, on the other hand, routinely have pour points around -40 degrees or colder. Some have pour points as low as - 60 to -70 degrees F. Granted, there are very few of us who will ever have to start our car at this temperature, but imagine how well these oils lubricate at -20, if it they still flow at -70. Synthetic base stocks therefore require little or no pour point depressant. Synthetic oils have the best low temperature flow characteristics, and are worth the extra cost in northern climates during the winter months.
Most petroleum oils have pour points in the range of -15 to -35 degrees F. That means that their borderline pumping temperature is, at best, around -15 degrees F and probably closer to 5 to 10 degrees F. So, if you're running a petroleum oil, don't expect to go out and start your car at 0 degrees and have it purr like a kitten. It's going to spit and sputter and kick and scream for a few minutes.
Synthetic oils, on the other hand, routinely have pour points around -40 degrees or colder. Some have pour points as low as - 60 to -70 degrees F. Granted, there are very few of us who will ever have to start our car at this temperature, but imagine how well these oils lubricate at -20, if it they still flow at -70. Synthetic base stocks therefore require little or no pour point depressant. Synthetic oils have the best low temperature flow characteristics, and are worth the extra cost in northern climates during the winter months.
I don't understand your aversion to a single word on the label. Maybe 'Heavy Duty" or "exceeds requirements for whatever use YOU can come up with" would connote the required goodness of the product, but I'm sure the marketing dept wants to capitalize on their ability to formulate rotary engine oils for racing. It doesn't say this is that formulation. It's not mentioned anywhere else on the package. But it does say on the label and I quote:
"This formulation has been speciifcally engineered to meet the unique requirements of a rotary engine." and "The technology BASE for this formulation goes back to .. oil which Idemitsu developed for the one and only winning 24 Hour Lemans rotory engine car."
That seems pretty straightforward. Wouldn't any company tout any technical/racing cred concerning a specialized product like oil?
Sounds like a company that has a least some experience with rotaries and has put it use 
Here's Mobile 1's website - https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English.../Homepage.aspx
It's completely driven by the theme of how the oil is THE OIL used in NASCAR racing and so it's the oil for you. Same story even more so. They just don't put "racing" on the label, but on the website.
Here's Castrol http://www.castrol.com/castrol/gener...tentId=6006728 little less focus but the theme is racing.
Seems pretty ordinary way to do business to appeal to the desired audience.
08-07-2009, 04:38 PM
#32
Wow - it continues . Though I killed off this discussion over in the other thread .
Very interesting that most of us concluded that 0w-30 synthetic was a good choice without seeing that Mazda had actually brought out this product already ...........
Very interesting that most of us concluded that 0w-30 synthetic was a good choice without seeing that Mazda had actually brought out this product already ...........
08-07-2009, 10:01 PM
#34
Super Moderator
This week I went to my Mazda Dealer and was talking to the Head Rotary Tech guy in their workshop.
Subject came up about engine replacements, and I said I bet many engines were replaced that did not need replacing in Australia because it was actually coil failure, believe it or not...he said yes.
He said he came up with a procedure to replace the Starter, Battery, coils and sometimes leads...problem solved...REALLY I said, I remember telling you this 12 months ago and you had little to say then, Mazda Australia are very happy with "his" diagnostic procedures" and have Bulletined all Australian Dealers with his repair procedure, I said they have been doing this in the US for ages...
I remember I also talked to their parts manager at the same time a year ago and asked if he has sold many Coils...No was his reply, I said well you had better stock the modified "B" ones as you will need plenty....guess what this dealership is now doing 8-10 sets of coils a month!
Engine replacements have dropped by 85%.!!!!
08-07-2009, 11:29 PM
#35
NYCGPS, Here is something Interesting for you....and OFF Topic.
This week I went to my Mazda Dealer and was talking to the Head Rotary Tech guy in their workshop.
Subject came up about engine replacements, and I said I bet many engines were replaced that did not need replacing in Australia because it was actually coil failure, believe it or not...he said yes.
He said he came up with a procedure to replace the Starter, Battery, coils and sometimes leads...problem solved...REALLY I said, I remember telling you this 12 months ago and you had little to say then, Mazda Australia are very happy with "his" diagnostic procedures" and have Bulletined all Australian Dealers with his repair procedure, I said they have been doing this in the US for ages...
I remember I also talked to their parts manager at the same time a year ago and asked if he has sold many Coils...No was his reply, I said well you had better stock the modified "B" ones as you will need plenty....guess what this dealership is now doing 8-10 sets of coils a month!
Engine replacements have dropped by 85%.!!!!
This week I went to my Mazda Dealer and was talking to the Head Rotary Tech guy in their workshop.
Subject came up about engine replacements, and I said I bet many engines were replaced that did not need replacing in Australia because it was actually coil failure, believe it or not...he said yes.
He said he came up with a procedure to replace the Starter, Battery, coils and sometimes leads...problem solved...REALLY I said, I remember telling you this 12 months ago and you had little to say then, Mazda Australia are very happy with "his" diagnostic procedures" and have Bulletined all Australian Dealers with his repair procedure, I said they have been doing this in the US for ages...
I remember I also talked to their parts manager at the same time a year ago and asked if he has sold many Coils...No was his reply, I said well you had better stock the modified "B" ones as you will need plenty....guess what this dealership is now doing 8-10 sets of coils a month!
Engine replacements have dropped by 85%.!!!!
too bad my original engine ... *sob* ...
08-08-2009, 12:20 PM
#36
Registered
Spin9k Viscosity at 40 Celcius we care which is 64 cST for the Idemitsu. Forget about the pour point. So forget about below zero temps. At 40 Celcius 64 cST is not so good if you want to protect your engine at cold start up.
A 0W-30 oil will have 56 cSt or less at 40 Celsius which is far better for protecting engine at cold start up. .
Idemitsu and Le mans, Ok , Streets are not Le mans ! If Idemitsu is Racing Oil ONLY then do not use it in your engine. If it is recommended for street use THEN use it
SIMPLE very SIMPLE
A 0W-30 oil will have 56 cSt or less at 40 Celsius which is far better for protecting engine at cold start up. .
Idemitsu and Le mans, Ok , Streets are not Le mans ! If Idemitsu is Racing Oil ONLY then do not use it in your engine. If it is recommended for street use THEN use it
SIMPLE very SIMPLE
08-08-2009, 12:27 PM
#37
Spin9k Viscosity at 40 Celcius we care which is 64 cST for the Idemitsu. Forget about the pour point. So forget about below zero temps. At 40 Celcius 64 cST is not so good if you want to protect your engine at cold start up.
A 0W-30 oil will have 56 cSt or less at 40 Celsius which is far better for protecting engine at cold start up. .
Idemitsu and Le mans, Ok , Streets are not Le mans ! If Idemitsu is Racing Oil ONLY then do not use it in your engine. If it is recommended for street use THEN use it
SIMPLE very SIMPLE
A 0W-30 oil will have 56 cSt or less at 40 Celsius which is far better for protecting engine at cold start up. .
Idemitsu and Le mans, Ok , Streets are not Le mans ! If Idemitsu is Racing Oil ONLY then do not use it in your engine. If it is recommended for street use THEN use it
SIMPLE very SIMPLE
**** I mean, 20+ years ago, there were no "wonderful 1337 super duper" 0w oil ! the best they got is 5w and it wasnt even that good. I dont see their engine blows up at 50K miles. in fact most of the older engines last much longer than our "so called modern days" engine with "modern" 0w super duper start up protection oil.
Technology has improved. oil did too. but I guess the "super duper" start up protection does not offset the "weak" film strength after it warm up.
08-08-2009, 01:06 PM
#38
Registered
Well there is no oil (even 0W) that you can use and avoid the cold start up wearing that substitutes the 90% of the wearing in an engine !
So the thinner oil you use the less you engine will wear at cold start up. You can never avoid the cold start up wearing, technology cannot help yet.
Yes you are correct that the older days there were no thin oils and the engines lasted many miles. Imagine if you could use those old days , today’s tech concerning oils ! Then those old engine could have lasted even more.
Do not attribute the reliability of the old engines to the thick oils.
0W-30 is a very good weight that Mazda has chosen to synthe-renesis oils. And yes Mazda did screw things up by not recommending PAO oils.
So the thinner oil you use the less you engine will wear at cold start up. You can never avoid the cold start up wearing, technology cannot help yet.
Yes you are correct that the older days there were no thin oils and the engines lasted many miles. Imagine if you could use those old days , today’s tech concerning oils ! Then those old engine could have lasted even more.
Do not attribute the reliability of the old engines to the thick oils.
0W-30 is a very good weight that Mazda has chosen to synthe-renesis oils. And yes Mazda did screw things up by not recommending PAO oils.
08-08-2009, 01:30 PM
#39
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Spin9k Viscosity at 40 Celcius we care which is 64 cST for the Idemitsu. Forget about the pour point. So forget about below zero temps. At 40 Celcius 64 cST is not so good if you want to protect your engine at cold start up.
A 0W-30 oil will have 56 cSt or less at 40 Celsius which is far better for protecting engine at cold start up. {than 64 cST}.
A 0W-30 oil will have 56 cSt or less at 40 Celsius which is far better for protecting engine at cold start up. {than 64 cST}.
But beyond that, I'm totally confused now...what does viscosity at 40C have to do with startup at cold startup temps?
Last edited by Spin9k; 08-08-2009 at 01:35 PM.
08-08-2009, 01:37 PM
#41
Registered
Very nice pic, but for example Amsoil 0W-30 is 56,6 cst at 40 Celsius and 10.3 cst at 100 Celsius and NOT 7.1 cst as it looks in the diagram.
Anyway as you say the difference is small but why not take advantage of 0W-30 ?
Anyway as you say the difference is small but why not take advantage of 0W-30 ?
08-08-2009, 01:40 PM
#42
Registered
08-08-2009, 01:54 PM
#43
Momentum Keeps Me Going
. I see evidence of at least some of what they advertise as being supeior for the rotary in my DD activities, so I'm game to believe the rest.
08-10-2009, 02:01 AM
#44
Registered
40 Celcius we care which is 64 cST for the Idemitsu means that when the oil will get at 40 Celcius the kinematic viscosity will be 64 cST which is VERY THICK.
So Imagine that each time you start your engine your oil is not at 40 Celcius (the temp applies to oil temp) it is even less. So forget the 64 cST you will be more that 64 cST which is more wearing.
Here we do not examine IF YOUR CAR will start (if it won’t you have other problems). We examine that WHEN you car will start your oil would be VERY THICK and will wear a lot your engine.
That is why a 0W-30 viscosity is a good viscosity ALTHOUGH 0W is not the ideal but the tech limitation.
IDEMITSU MAY BE THE BEST RACING OIL . THIS does not mean that is the best oil for STREET USE.
So Imagine that each time you start your engine your oil is not at 40 Celcius (the temp applies to oil temp) it is even less. So forget the 64 cST you will be more that 64 cST which is more wearing.
Here we do not examine IF YOUR CAR will start (if it won’t you have other problems). We examine that WHEN you car will start your oil would be VERY THICK and will wear a lot your engine.
That is why a 0W-30 viscosity is a good viscosity ALTHOUGH 0W is not the ideal but the tech limitation.
IDEMITSU MAY BE THE BEST RACING OIL . THIS does not mean that is the best oil for STREET USE.
08-10-2009, 06:38 AM
#45
Momentum Keeps Me Going
rotaryPilot I think you are confusing an oil tested ratings with a particular oil's actual characteristics. What's printed on the can is a result of a particular testing protocol at a particular temperature. The numbers produced fall somewhere within a 'rating range' and from that a number (like 0W or 30W) is assigned and can be printed on the can. But results at another temp or another test protocol can be very much different as oils are an engineered product, not a natural product like water, for example.
In other words, taking one test number (say cST at 40 degC) for an oil and then saying, "so imagine how thick it is when xx cold" is not a useful extrapolation.
Here's another fun graph. Notice examples of two oils with the same SAE rating (0W-30 & 10W-30) we're discussing here. BOTH have virtually identical cST viscosity at temps ABOVE 0 deg F. They only begin to diverge in viscosity below 0 def F. So yes, the 0W-30 is better at BELOW Zero F temps, granted...but that is all! At 30 deg F or 60 deg F or 80 deg F - - - these particualr 0W-30 and a 10W-30 oils are for all intent and purposes, viscosity wise, the same. And so I'd take from that if it get's THAT cold where you live, then in that season having a 0W could make sense.
But as I mentioned before, my choice is Idemitsu, as my temps are higher here when I use the car, because of it's rotary specific formuation vs. some unknow formulation of ( you didn't name it) your 0W-30 and because (gernerally speaking) in the temp range I use the car there is essentially no viscosity difference 30W = 30W!
I can see you are passonate about this oil discsussion rotaryPilot, so you should enjoy this somewhat in-depth paper on what all the various testing numbers REALLY mean - and what they don't mean. I found it helpful and esp. after re-reading it several times to get it to all sink in
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief13%2...0Viscosity.pdf
In other words, taking one test number (say cST at 40 degC) for an oil and then saying, "so imagine how thick it is when xx cold" is not a useful extrapolation.
Here's another fun graph. Notice examples of two oils with the same SAE rating (0W-30 & 10W-30) we're discussing here. BOTH have virtually identical cST viscosity at temps ABOVE 0 deg F. They only begin to diverge in viscosity below 0 def F. So yes, the 0W-30 is better at BELOW Zero F temps, granted...but that is all! At 30 deg F or 60 deg F or 80 deg F - - - these particualr 0W-30 and a 10W-30 oils are for all intent and purposes, viscosity wise, the same. And so I'd take from that if it get's THAT cold where you live, then in that season having a 0W could make sense.
But as I mentioned before, my choice is Idemitsu, as my temps are higher here when I use the car, because of it's rotary specific formuation vs. some unknow formulation of ( you didn't name it) your 0W-30 and because (gernerally speaking) in the temp range I use the car there is essentially no viscosity difference 30W = 30W!
I can see you are passonate about this oil discsussion rotaryPilot, so you should enjoy this somewhat in-depth paper on what all the various testing numbers REALLY mean - and what they don't mean. I found it helpful and esp. after re-reading it several times to get it to all sink in
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief13%2...0Viscosity.pdf
Last edited by Spin9k; 08-10-2009 at 06:40 AM.
08-10-2009, 09:19 AM
#46
Mazda does not make their own oil so that "Synthe-Renesis" oil is just a rebadge from something else.
Idemitsu is the biggest oil manufacture in Japan and they have such wonderful relationship with Mazda and they know so much about Rotary engines, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Synthe-Renesis is actually Idemitsu
For the record, Idemitsu Japan sells 0w30 oil as well.
Idemitsu is the biggest oil manufacture in Japan and they have such wonderful relationship with Mazda and they know so much about Rotary engines, so I wouldn't be surprised if the Synthe-Renesis is actually Idemitsu
For the record, Idemitsu Japan sells 0w30 oil as well.
08-10-2009, 09:27 AM
#47
40 Celcius we care which is 64 cST for the Idemitsu means that when the oil will get at 40 Celcius the kinematic viscosity will be 64 cST which is VERY THICK.
So Imagine that each time you start your engine your oil is not at 40 Celcius (the temp applies to oil temp) it is even less. So forget the 64 cST you will be more that 64 cST which is more wearing.
Here we do not examine IF YOUR CAR will start (if it won’t you have other problems). We examine that WHEN you car will start your oil would be VERY THICK and will wear a lot your engine.
That is why a 0W-30 viscosity is a good viscosity ALTHOUGH 0W is not the ideal but the tech limitation.
IDEMITSU MAY BE THE BEST RACING OIL . THIS does not mean that is the best oil for STREET USE.
So Imagine that each time you start your engine your oil is not at 40 Celcius (the temp applies to oil temp) it is even less. So forget the 64 cST you will be more that 64 cST which is more wearing.
Here we do not examine IF YOUR CAR will start (if it won’t you have other problems). We examine that WHEN you car will start your oil would be VERY THICK and will wear a lot your engine.
That is why a 0W-30 viscosity is a good viscosity ALTHOUGH 0W is not the ideal but the tech limitation.
IDEMITSU MAY BE THE BEST RACING OIL . THIS does not mean that is the best oil for STREET USE.
API rating is the problem --- you have too much additive ? even just one kind, say, ZDDP, will fail the test. but does that mean its not good for street use? nooooooOOOo.
you might want to find out how oil gets their "certification" first before saying "Racing oil is bad for street use"
08-11-2009, 03:26 AM
#50
Ayrton Senna Forever
rotaryPilot I think you are confusing an oil tested ratings with a particular oil's actual characteristics. What's printed on the can is a result of a particular testing protocol at a particular temperature. The numbers produced fall somewhere within a 'rating range' and from that a number (like 0W or 30W) is assigned and can be printed on the can. But results at another temp or another test protocol can be very much different as oils are an engineered product, not a natural product like water, for example.
In other words, taking one test number (say cST at 40 degC) for an oil and then saying, "so imagine how thick it is when xx cold" is not a useful extrapolation.
Here's another fun graph. Notice examples of two oils with the same SAE rating (0W-30 & 10W-30) we're discussing here. BOTH have virtually identical cST viscosity at temps ABOVE 0 deg F. They only begin to diverge in viscosity below 0 def F. So yes, the 0W-30 is better at BELOW Zero F temps, granted...but that is all! At 30 deg F or 60 deg F or 80 deg F - - - these particualr 0W-30 and a 10W-30 oils are for all intent and purposes, viscosity wise, the same. And so I'd take from that if it get's THAT cold where you live, then in that season having a 0W could make sense.
But as I mentioned before, my choice is Idemitsu, as my temps are higher here when I use the car, because of it's rotary specific formuation vs. some unknow formulation of ( you didn't name it) your 0W-30 and because (gernerally speaking) in the temp range I use the car there is essentially no viscosity difference 30W = 30W!
I can see you are passonate about this oil discsussion rotaryPilot, so you should enjoy this somewhat in-depth paper on what all the various testing numbers REALLY mean - and what they don't mean. I found it helpful and esp. after re-reading it several times to get it to all sink in
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief13%2...0Viscosity.pdf
In other words, taking one test number (say cST at 40 degC) for an oil and then saying, "so imagine how thick it is when xx cold" is not a useful extrapolation.
Here's another fun graph. Notice examples of two oils with the same SAE rating (0W-30 & 10W-30) we're discussing here. BOTH have virtually identical cST viscosity at temps ABOVE 0 deg F. They only begin to diverge in viscosity below 0 def F. So yes, the 0W-30 is better at BELOW Zero F temps, granted...but that is all! At 30 deg F or 60 deg F or 80 deg F - - - these particualr 0W-30 and a 10W-30 oils are for all intent and purposes, viscosity wise, the same. And so I'd take from that if it get's THAT cold where you live, then in that season having a 0W could make sense.
But as I mentioned before, my choice is Idemitsu, as my temps are higher here when I use the car, because of it's rotary specific formuation vs. some unknow formulation of ( you didn't name it) your 0W-30 and because (gernerally speaking) in the temp range I use the car there is essentially no viscosity difference 30W = 30W!
I can see you are passonate about this oil discsussion rotaryPilot, so you should enjoy this somewhat in-depth paper on what all the various testing numbers REALLY mean - and what they don't mean. I found it helpful and esp. after re-reading it several times to get it to all sink in
http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief13%2...0Viscosity.pdf
For example it shows that almost every oil has the same viscosity at 0F, but in the real life there are huge difference between the viscosity of a 0w-xx, 5w-xx, 10w-xx, 15w-xx, 20w-xx oils at 0F, even at 40F.