HD-Paschke

In Germany are only special SYNTHETIK DEXELIA Super 5w-30 recommend or equivalently ACEA A5/B5.

http://www.franken-online.de/hgb/RX-8/Mazda-Oel.pdf

jird20

Wait juanjux:

is not that every 20.000 km (12,500 miles)?

Regards

jird20

expo1

Here is a Google translation of this 8/16/2006 doc. Now how did this oil get the Mazda stamp of approval?? What is the difference between a conventional synthetic and an un-conventional synthetic?
I wonder how many fewer engines Mazda would have had to replace if 5w-30 was also the requirement in the USA?

33 date: 16.08.2006 side: 1/1 engine oil specification
- Mazda Wankelmotore
technology (KSI) No.: 64/06 building group: D (E017/06)

very honoured contracting parties, from given cause we refer again to the specific engine oil requirements with wankel engines. With employment of conventional synthetic high speed engine oils it can come in exceptional cases to increased engine wear and to seal incompatibilities. Therefore we recommend urgently the employment of Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 with Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 concern it a particularly developed engine oil, which becomes optimally the special requirements of the Mazda Wankelmotore fair. Mazda Dexelia Ultra 5W-30 is the only engine oil for Wankelmotore, recommended by Mazda. If this engine oil should not be available in exceptional cases, then 5W-30 with the minimum requirement is ACEA A5/B5 to begin excluding lubricants of the specification SOWS. Engine oils with lower ACEA qualities (e.g. A1/B1) are not usable! Note: LOW SAP engine oils of the specification ACEA c1 and/or ACEA C1-A5-B5 and/or ACEA C2-A5-B5 are not suitable for the use!

Yours sincerely M. Grüttke E. weber
leader KS-technology KS-technology

ASH8

Mazda Distributors other than the US (it appears) have NEVER recommended the use of Synthetic oils for ANY rotary engine...period..

I don't give a rats ******* what other experts say, until Mazda recommends it I wont use it, and that's what I said when I first joined the forum..

The MA bulletin that circulated here and was some years old still applies, now we see 1+1 new bulletins to distributor/dealers from MMC (1) repeating the same warning.

WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED TO BE TOLD...there is NO covering their **** or a conspiracy issue.

NO Manufacturer, Dealer, or Distributor can control WHAT an owner does to their car and what they may or may not put in it!.....

While I agree with RG on many of his points, its because the issues of what Synths are good are what are not, can a "blended" synthetic be used or not...blah blah blah...

Of course its easier fro MMC to have a NO RECOMMENDATION for SYNTHETICS, as they don't and wont endorse or test any particular brand, etc, etc.

Those who RACE Rotary engine vehicles should be excluded as ALL are overhauled very regularly and ALL seals are renewed....Its IS the LONG term use of synthetics and carbon build up that IS the issue, that leads to "marbles', poor performance, fowled plugs, oil control "O" Ring degradation,etc.

I know this sounds like a contradiction but CARBON build up in rotaries is nothing new...
It happened in the 70's when SYNTHETIC oils did not exist, and high lead content fuels did,
the only real way to remove it is to strip the engine and wire wheel it off rotors, etc.

Today, the critical difference is the way the exhaust is ported in the RENESIS, through side housings....as shown in Bulletin....ie...high carbon build up is BAD NEWS!!!

ASH8

I can assure you that Mazda Japan have NEVER recommended the use of Synth in ANY of their Rotary engines, from 10a,12a,13a,13b,20b, Ren 13B, they all use that same oil control ring and o ring design.

Cromax

This has already been covered, but I was told by service at my dealer that the mazda oil is a semi-synthetic mix. I also noticed that it's green, instead of being a nice gold colour ...
... which is bizarre, I've never seen green engine oil before!

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

of course this will never end----- Differant opinions helps the world go around.
Guess I am just a pragmatist--but then again I (along with many others) have been supporting and using pre mix in this engine for a long time. We must have some idea what is going on.
rotor on ------
olddragger

timbo

ASH8, the key word in your post is "recommend". As you are aware, initially (ie, until mid '04) there was no MRO available in Australia, so most Australian Mazda dealers were using either Mobil1 or a Castrol synth or semi-synth.

Then MRO was released, with that strange wording on the bottle which certainly suggested you didn't "need" to use it in the Renesis!

Grizzly8

The oil mystery continues , in the earlier days July 03 i contacted Mazda Australia with my concern at not having the correct as in recommended MINERAL OIL , available to us , and guess what i finally got a reply with this TBS thats been released now .

Timbo is 100% correct the so called recommended Mazda mineral oil was NOT available til mid 04 .

Michael

two rotors

The only thing is that the ports shown in the picture are INTAKE ports and are no different that 2nd gen 6 port engines(apart from area and timing differences)

Nubo

It would largely end if Mazda would do a very simple thing. As part of the recall, they could apply a revision to the owner's manual stating NON-SYNTHETIC OIL ONLY, and inform the customer. E.g. have the customer apply the page update. And/or give each customer a new oil cap with the specification marked.

I was prepared to switch, and actually did use conventional oil in my recent change, because it seemed like Mazda was finally going to make their position clear, from reading the press stories which alleged that part of the engine issue was use of synthetics.

Now that I've seen the apparently official notices, which don't mention synthetic oil at all, I see no reason not to switch back and every reason to doubt the accuracy of the press reports.

If there's really a problem, then Mazda is retarded to not take the necessary action, since they will have to spend the time and resources to fix the complaints, not to mention customer dissatisfaction. While we debate the issue endlessly and scour the WWW for evidence, Joe Consumer looks in his owners manual and sees that he needs SL oil. Period.

If Mazda wants the consumer to follow a specification, then Mazda has to ESTABLISH the specification. In no way have they done so in the American market. Yes, I've seen pictures of the little tips booklet and I've heard about the CD. That doesn't cut it and I stand by my statement. I can only conclude that synthetic oils meeting API SL, sold in the American market, are suitable for use in the Renesis engine.

timbo

Nubo, which part of: do you not understand?

swoope

iTrader: (5)

i think many here, dont read the whole thing....

this is a auzzy and europe thing... we just get new motors...

mazda does not have a tsb out on syn oil in the usa..

hope this helps..

beers

fnegroni

exactly, synth oils are apparently only prohibited in Europe and Australia. Although countries liek Italy, which don't speak English, don't even know about it!

I used Motul 8100 PAO fully-synth for 12k miles, including a full oil change at the second service and 2 track days.
My oil usage is just the same as before (if not a bit less in winter).

I am now using the mazda Dexelia stuff and again, noticed no change whatsoever.

BTW, at 33k miles, using semi-synth and fully-synth oil, I am still on the original catalyst.

Only difference, I have always used 5w-30 API SL oil

PhotoMunkey

I think the basic issue is how the longer, stronger molecular chains in Synth oils create stronger, bigger ash particles perhaps. The clue I'm looking at is the shear properties of the oil, and Mobil 1 is one of the best in the industry in this regard. It is very resistant to burning, and it must be imagined that it would still retain this property even with fuel diluting it in the cylinder. If it WERE more resistant to being burnt, it is likely that the carbon chains might be extremely prone to clinging together in a tar-like manner, and would, of course be pushed into the tertiary port in light use.

With the upcoming PCM programming change set to inject MORE oil at light cruise (less fuel dilution), it is also likely that we *could* see an increase in the carbon issue in cars where synthetics are run (regardless whether they're a "cracked" synthetic or a full synthetic). The steady-state cruise mode would keep the cylinder heat fairly high and without the occasional opening of the 3rd port, carbon will collect there.

This is purely hypothetical conjecture on my part, but looking at the facts, the very characteristics which make synthetics great for lubrication might be the cause of their carbonizing effect in the Renesis 13B.

Nubo

It's a very clear, concise declarative sentence.

I should have made it clear, I am stating this from a U.S. owners' perspective. Your TSB leaves no room for doubt what Mazda requires of Australian owners. However, in the USA we have no such TSB, no revision to owners' manual, etc...

So, re-read my post in that light.

ken-x8

They can't. In the US motor oil specification is an industry standard, and Mazda can't freelance - even if they have good technical reasons. They're legally stuck


Yes - that's what the laws and standards require.

It could be worse. There are organizations like Consumers Union who think Joe Consumer shouldn't even have to look for the SL. He should just have to look for the "star" symbol. They're actually part way there. Look at a bottle of oil. The star symbol is on the front, and the API symbol (which actually conveys information) is relegated to the back.

Mazda is sticking their neck way out by saying mineral oil only in their booklet and the video. They're also sticking their neck out in the places where they say to use only 91 octane fuel. While I am a very conventional, law-abiding person, I think Mazda's hedonism and courage should be rewarded. Dino and 91 for me and my 8!

YMMV

Ken

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Im using Synthentic.

My engine is Alive.

18000 miles running strong.

Some ppl on the 7 boards have their engine running Full synthentic For its whole life and not even a single problem.

So? What does that mean ?

Mazda is a company people, a GOD DAMN COMPANY, CORPORATION ! THEY ARE HERE TO MAKE MONEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

damn it ...... its always ALWAYS ALWAYS easier for them ban all than testing every single one of them out there. cuz you know what, do you guys have ANY idea how MANY oils are out there.

Jesus christ people. Keep these oil thing to yourself. Use Mineral or whatever I dont care. If it works for you. Great !

but Im using Synthentic like most people , I dont buy this "corporation" bullshit. and My engine has yet to blow up. simple as that.

ASH8

Actually mate Mazda Japan have been consistent on this "corporation Bullshit"..
they have over the last 15 years or more NEVER recommended the use of ANY Synthetic oils for rotaries...so there is no bullshit..they have remained consistent.

The BULLSHIT comes from those who don't or won't listen...the owners....and no body really cares what you put down your tube, but hey, don't complain when an issue of marbles, poor performance, missing... MAY occur...hey its MAZDA'S Fault ...Right...yeah...'the land of the synthetics'.

ASH8

MAZDA's in Italy are distributed by Mazda Motors Europe?...

timbo

OK, have re-read, and understand what you're saying....but.....

are you seriously going to wait for MNA to get itself through whatever mire of regulations and specifications that bind it from saying anything along the same lines as it has said in Australia and Europe? It's the same engine in each market, same seals, ports, o-rings etc

ASH8

Yes I do, but, to say that there was not a mineral oil available in Australia at the time was unusual and wrong by MA...

I used and still do Castrol GTX3 a 10w40 MINERAL OIL....fantastic.....and cheaper than MA's MRO...and great for our summer's.

Sure its a little heavier, but, most if not all new oils thin within 500 kilometres of use.

IMO this has been part of the problem in the US using a 0w20, way too light for high temp use...(even though their gradings/standards are slightly different to ours, and I said this in 2005 when they had failures in Nevada, oil that light would have been BOILING and BURNING)

Nubo

Not quite. If they want to require a special brand (such as their vaunted Dexelia), I think they can do so as long as they provide it free of charge.

Interesting take.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I also wonder how many years it took before Harley Davidson accept Synthentic Oil.

people who use Mineral have marbles, poor performance, missing .... what? Sure its NOT Mazda's fault. Its not their fault that they didnt program their PCM right.

Sorry to disappoint you that I just dont have any problems when using Synthentic, and theres no one can give people hard prove. Oh, I think two rotor post a pic of his Synthentic Motor , take a look at it. wheres carbon.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I also wonder how many years it took before Harley Davidson accept Synthentic Oil.

people who use Mineral have marbles, poor performance, missing .... what? Sure its NOT Mazda's fault. Its not their fault that they didnt program their PCM right. some people's A/C rough idle issue has been corrected by using Synthentic oil. Oh yes. That must be Mazda's fault too.

Sorry to disappoint you but I just dont have any problems using Synthentic. Oh, I think two rotor post a pic of his Synthentic Motor , take a look at it. wheres the carbon.

Too bad. my engine is still alive.

My personal experience might be a little short (18K miles only), but I have no problems with Synthentic. So just mind your own business and stick with your mineral.