New TSB from Mazda Australia says mineral oils only!
08-15-2006, 02:51 AM
#26
quote from TSB "... causes carbon deposits in the inlet ports..."
why does the carbon build up in the inlet? if it's created in the combustion is it moved round to the inlet by the rotar?
why does the carbon build up in the inlet? if it's created in the combustion is it moved round to the inlet by the rotar?
08-15-2006, 10:57 AM
#28
Lubricious
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
4 Posts
Why do these documents always come from Australia? This is the 2nd one. In both cases, I believe, there's prominent mention of the "official Mazda genuine oil imported from Japan, carefully decanted into the convenient 1litre and 5litre packs, untouched by human hands and available at your dealer". I think someone's trying to protect their sales. If there were a real mechanical reason, Mazda Corporate would be pushing the prohibition worldwide. It's very simple -- warranty repairs and replacements cost them money. If there's a "bad oil" out there, you will know about it without having to monitor the Aus. grapevine.
08-15-2006, 02:07 PM
#31
Rotary Wanker
Originally Posted by ayrton012
Rotarygod you are my hero!
2. I hardly believe, that a true mineral oil can reach the 5w spec., maybe 15w.
2. I hardly believe, that a true mineral oil can reach the 5w spec., maybe 15w.
08-15-2006, 07:52 PM
#32
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We just got a similar bulletin here in the UK, addressed to the European market (see attached picture).
I have used PAO semi-synth oil (Fuchs Titan XTR 5w-30) from the start, and then switched to fully synth PAO (Motul 8100) about 12k miles ago (I am now on 32k miles in 2 years).
I take my car on the track, I never had hesitation, still on original CAT.
I do fill up with Shell's Optimax, equivalent to 93 Octane, which contains some additives to clean carbon deposits, but I never really thought that to be an issue as long as you rev the engine in the medium power band (4k to 6k revs).
I just purchased some original Mazda Dexelia 5w-30 oil from my dealer today just to be prepared as I yet haven't opened the 5L bottle of Motul.
The Mazda oil is API SL ACEA A5 specs, same as the Motul. It is made by Total/Elf/Fina which sells it under the name Quartz Future 9000.
The Mazda bottle doesn't say anything about it being synthetic, the Total brand bottle says it is synthetically engineered.
We have some oil chemists on the uk forum, and we found out the Mazda Dexelia/Total Quartz is in fact a group III hydrocracked oil so infact not really synthetic but as mineral as it gets in 5w-30 viscosity.
So although Mazda is obviously trying to play it safe recommending people don't just go and buy the first oil they see on the shelf, especially if it claims to be synthetic, I do believe as long as your oil is chosen carefully, you should be just fine.
Besides, I don't know if I fancy tracking my car using mineral oil. I am going to be on track on the 26th August, I hope I will get a clearer picture before then, otherwise I'll just take my 5L Motul bottle with me.
I have used PAO semi-synth oil (Fuchs Titan XTR 5w-30) from the start, and then switched to fully synth PAO (Motul 8100) about 12k miles ago (I am now on 32k miles in 2 years).
I take my car on the track, I never had hesitation, still on original CAT.
I do fill up with Shell's Optimax, equivalent to 93 Octane, which contains some additives to clean carbon deposits, but I never really thought that to be an issue as long as you rev the engine in the medium power band (4k to 6k revs).
I just purchased some original Mazda Dexelia 5w-30 oil from my dealer today just to be prepared as I yet haven't opened the 5L bottle of Motul.
The Mazda oil is API SL ACEA A5 specs, same as the Motul. It is made by Total/Elf/Fina which sells it under the name Quartz Future 9000.
The Mazda bottle doesn't say anything about it being synthetic, the Total brand bottle says it is synthetically engineered.
We have some oil chemists on the uk forum, and we found out the Mazda Dexelia/Total Quartz is in fact a group III hydrocracked oil so infact not really synthetic but as mineral as it gets in 5w-30 viscosity.
So although Mazda is obviously trying to play it safe recommending people don't just go and buy the first oil they see on the shelf, especially if it claims to be synthetic, I do believe as long as your oil is chosen carefully, you should be just fine.
Besides, I don't know if I fancy tracking my car using mineral oil. I am going to be on track on the 26th August, I hope I will get a clearer picture before then, otherwise I'll just take my 5L Motul bottle with me.
08-15-2006, 11:08 PM
#33
Not all Synthetic are the same. Some are really bad I admit, so does Mineral oil.
and most people who owns a 8 doesnt know **** about cars, they thought that "oh, dont rev the engine cuz it might shorten its life" but its exact opposite. This applies to piston engine owners too.
AS RG pointed out, carbon deposite MOSTLY came from the gasoline, I think Mazda should require people to use at least 91 octane. So engine failure rate would be lower.
and most people who owns a 8 doesnt know **** about cars, they thought that "oh, dont rev the engine cuz it might shorten its life" but its exact opposite. This applies to piston engine owners too.
AS RG pointed out, carbon deposite MOSTLY came from the gasoline, I think Mazda should require people to use at least 91 octane. So engine failure rate would be lower.
08-15-2006, 11:48 PM
#34
rock-->o<--hard place
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fnegroni
We just got a similar bulletin here in the UK, addressed to the European market
08-16-2006, 03:35 AM
#36
Registered
It doesn't work that way. There no "synth additives". The additives that go into a synthetic oil are no different than those that go into any other oil. They may be in different proportions and some may have a few extra ones that others don't but none are special "synth additives". There are only so many different additives that may go into oils. Not aevery one needs to be used as some have redundant properties to other ones that are available. Which ones get used and in what ratio is dependent on the manufacturer.
It's the base stock that determines whether or not it is "synthetic" Group I-III oils are conventionals. Some consider Group III conventionals but all they are is more highly refined lower grade oils. That's what separates these groups out. The more refined, the less impurities in it. In this case more is a good thing. I don't consider Group III oils to be synthetic. They are still paraffin base stocks.
Group IV Poly Alpha Olefins and Group V oils are true synthetics. What makes a motor oil what it is? Is it the base stock or the additives? The base stock determines whether we consider it synthetic or not but it's the additive package that turns it all into motor oil. All base stocks require an additive package. They are not motor oil without them.
"Synth additives" are the same the same basic things as the additives that go into conventional oils. There is nothing any more synthetic or conventional about them. If Castrol Syntec is a Group III oil, it is a conventional. Just the best most pure conventional which makes it better than the standard oils that most people use which are Group I-II. Since all oils including "synthetics" are derived from the petroleum industry, what makes any of them "synthetic" as opposed to not? What's more important, what it's called or how well it works?
Hopefully that clears that up.
It's the base stock that determines whether or not it is "synthetic" Group I-III oils are conventionals. Some consider Group III conventionals but all they are is more highly refined lower grade oils. That's what separates these groups out. The more refined, the less impurities in it. In this case more is a good thing. I don't consider Group III oils to be synthetic. They are still paraffin base stocks.
Group IV Poly Alpha Olefins and Group V oils are true synthetics. What makes a motor oil what it is? Is it the base stock or the additives? The base stock determines whether we consider it synthetic or not but it's the additive package that turns it all into motor oil. All base stocks require an additive package. They are not motor oil without them.
"Synth additives" are the same the same basic things as the additives that go into conventional oils. There is nothing any more synthetic or conventional about them. If Castrol Syntec is a Group III oil, it is a conventional. Just the best most pure conventional which makes it better than the standard oils that most people use which are Group I-II. Since all oils including "synthetics" are derived from the petroleum industry, what makes any of them "synthetic" as opposed to not? What's more important, what it's called or how well it works?
Hopefully that clears that up.
08-16-2006, 08:43 AM
#37
Ayrton Senna Forever
Thanks! One more question: Could be a mineral oil 5w? As Mazda said in the service bulletin, only mineral oil to use, not semi synthetic or synth. The semi synthetic oils are mineral base, so Mazda says No to mineral base oils too, in this bulletin. Is there any mineral ( not only mineral base) oil on the market with 5w spec? Sorry if I just confuse this theme.
08-16-2006, 09:15 AM
#39
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fnegroni
....So although Mazda is obviously trying to play it safe recommending people don't just go and buy the first oil they see on the shelf, especially if it claims to be synthetic, I do believe as long as your oil is chosen carefully, you should be just fine....
My point is this. Mazda are not playing it safe, as you have suggested. Playing it safe would mean mailing that bulletin to every RX-8 owner in Europe.
08-16-2006, 09:30 AM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Gomez
My point is this. Mazda are not playing it safe, as you have suggested. Playing it safe would mean mailing that bulletin to every RX-8 owner in Europe.
Originally Posted by Gomez
fnegroni, where did you get your hands on that bulletin? Did your dealer hand it to you? I take it that it's not widely available.....it's not like there are a stack of them on the service counter at your dealership?
All dealers in the UK should have one by now, and as it says in there, all user manuals will have an errata corrige leaflet in there informing the new customers.
Mazda UK told us Mazda Japan issued the TSB following some testing in "extreme" conditions. What these conditions are, we don't know yet (probably never will). We don't even know what synthetic they used in their test, and what conditions was the test performed in (lab or real life).
08-16-2006, 09:36 AM
#41
Ayrton Senna Forever
Originally Posted by fnegroni
ayrton, the mazda dexelia 5w-30 oil is an hydrocracked oil (very good quality too), which is mineral oil, not synthetic nor semi-synthetic.
I have a broschure (German) about Mazda Dexelia's, and I find in it that the 5w-30 Dexelia is synthetically engineered.
08-16-2006, 09:47 AM
#42
Shifty Bastard.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia.
Posts: 4,835
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by fnegroni
All dealers in the UK should have one by now, and as it says in there, all user manuals will have an errata corrige leaflet in there informing the new customers.
You note the emphasis above.....seems like the old punters may never find out, the way I read it.
08-16-2006, 10:10 AM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ayrton012
Thanks! So hydrocracked=synthetically engineered?
I have a broschure (German) about Mazda Dexelia's, and I find in it that the 5w-30 Dexelia is synthetically engineered.
I have a broschure (German) about Mazda Dexelia's, and I find in it that the 5w-30 Dexelia is synthetically engineered.
Mazda Dexelia 5w-30 is Total Quartz Future 9000 5w-30, API SL and ACEA A5.
It's a good oil, top of the range for Total.
I use Motul 8100 Fully-synthetic (PAO), been doing that for 12K miles and two trackdays and not yet an issue.
This is how I believe this happened:
Total rings Mazda: "Hey Dave, your RX-8 customers are using fully synthetic oil"
Mazda : "We know, there is no problem with that"
Total: "well, you promised us a lot of market share, the rx-8 is popular and we can't sell our oil to anyone else but the dealers"
Mazda: "Would you like to make a synth oil for us?"
Total: "Don't be silly, we haven't got the expertise, let alone the market, for making such thing!... tell your customers to use Total oil or else...!"
Mazda: "What do you want us to tell them?"
Total: "if they don't use our oil, their seals will swell"
Mazda: "We already issued a TSB where we say the problem is non-existant. What else can we do?"
Total: "Tell them if they don't use our oil, their warranty is void!"
Mazda: "Can't tell them that, the manual doesn't say so, what about our existing customers?"
Total: "Ok, tell them there is a remote possibility under extreme conditions that if they don't use our oil, bad things can happen, like carbon deposits on the inlet valves. Put it in the manual"
Mazda: "Ok, too late to change the manual, and it costs money. What about we issue a TSB?"
Total: "Ok, but only for the countries we have a market presence."
Mazda: "Ok, we'll do that"
Tada! result!
I bet Mazda has already contacted a reputable oil producer (Motul, Total's competitor, or Mobil) and asked them to develop a synthetic specifically for the Renesis so that when the next rx-8 comes out, they will then advertise this revolutionary technology called Synthetic for Rotaries.
Last edited by fnegroni; 08-16-2006 at 10:22 AM.
08-16-2006, 11:36 AM
#45
Originally Posted by rotarygod
It doesn't work that way. There no "synth additives". The additives that go into a synthetic oil are no different than those that go into any other oil. They may be in different proportions and some may have a few extra ones that others don't but none are special "synth additives". There are only so many different additives that may go into oils. Not aevery one needs to be used as some have redundant properties to other ones that are available. Which ones get used and in what ratio is dependent on the manufacturer.
It's the base stock that determines whether or not it is "synthetic" Group I-III oils are conventionals. Some consider Group III conventionals but all they are is more highly refined lower grade oils. That's what separates these groups out. The more refined, the less impurities in it. In this case more is a good thing. I don't consider Group III oils to be synthetic. They are still paraffin base stocks.
Group IV Poly Alpha Olefins and Group V oils are true synthetics. What makes a motor oil what it is? Is it the base stock or the additives? The base stock determines whether we consider it synthetic or not but it's the additive package that turns it all into motor oil. All base stocks require an additive package. They are not motor oil without them.
"Synth additives" are the same the same basic things as the additives that go into conventional oils. There is nothing any more synthetic or conventional about them. If Castrol Syntec is a Group III oil, it is a conventional. Just the best most pure conventional which makes it better than the standard oils that most people use which are Group I-II. Since all oils including "synthetics" are derived from the petroleum industry, what makes any of them "synthetic" as opposed to not? What's more important, what it's called or how well it works?
Hopefully that clears that up.
It's the base stock that determines whether or not it is "synthetic" Group I-III oils are conventionals. Some consider Group III conventionals but all they are is more highly refined lower grade oils. That's what separates these groups out. The more refined, the less impurities in it. In this case more is a good thing. I don't consider Group III oils to be synthetic. They are still paraffin base stocks.
Group IV Poly Alpha Olefins and Group V oils are true synthetics. What makes a motor oil what it is? Is it the base stock or the additives? The base stock determines whether we consider it synthetic or not but it's the additive package that turns it all into motor oil. All base stocks require an additive package. They are not motor oil without them.
"Synth additives" are the same the same basic things as the additives that go into conventional oils. There is nothing any more synthetic or conventional about them. If Castrol Syntec is a Group III oil, it is a conventional. Just the best most pure conventional which makes it better than the standard oils that most people use which are Group I-II. Since all oils including "synthetics" are derived from the petroleum industry, what makes any of them "synthetic" as opposed to not? What's more important, what it's called or how well it works?
Hopefully that clears that up.
Hewww
Could you PLEASE make a small list the "Syn" & "Dino" oils in groups?
Penzoil syn?
redline?
Castrol syn
ect...
& regular dino oils
Which group do these belong too?
THANK YOU!!
08-17-2006, 01:36 AM
#46
Ayrton Senna Forever
Originally Posted by fnegroni
Yes, hydrocracking an oil is legally enough to call it synthetically engineered.
Mazda Dexelia 5w-30 is Total Quartz Future 9000 5w-30, API SL and ACEA A5.
It's a good oil, top of the range for Total.
I use Motul 8100 Fully-synthetic (PAO), been doing that for 12K miles and two trackdays and not yet an issue.
This is how I believe this happened:
Total rings Mazda: "Hey Dave, your RX-8 customers are using fully synthetic oil"
Mazda : "We know, there is no problem with that"
Total: "well, you promised us a lot of market share, the rx-8 is popular and we can't sell our oil to anyone else but the dealers"
Mazda: "Would you like to make a synth oil for us?"
Total: "Don't be silly, we haven't got the expertise, let alone the market, for making such thing!... tell your customers to use Total oil or else...!"
Mazda: "What do you want us to tell them?"
Total: "if they don't use our oil, their seals will swell"
Mazda: "We already issued a TSB where we say the problem is non-existant. What else can we do?"
Total: "Tell them if they don't use our oil, their warranty is void!"
Mazda: "Can't tell them that, the manual doesn't say so, what about our existing customers?"
Total: "Ok, tell them there is a remote possibility under extreme conditions that if they don't use our oil, bad things can happen, like carbon deposits on the inlet valves. Put it in the manual"
Mazda: "Ok, too late to change the manual, and it costs money. What about we issue a TSB?"
Total: "Ok, but only for the countries we have a market presence."
Mazda: "Ok, we'll do that"
Tada! result!
I bet Mazda has already contacted a reputable oil producer (Motul, Total's competitor, or Mobil) and asked them to develop a synthetic specifically for the Renesis so that when the next rx-8 comes out, they will then advertise this revolutionary technology called Synthetic for Rotaries.
Mazda Dexelia 5w-30 is Total Quartz Future 9000 5w-30, API SL and ACEA A5.
It's a good oil, top of the range for Total.
I use Motul 8100 Fully-synthetic (PAO), been doing that for 12K miles and two trackdays and not yet an issue.
This is how I believe this happened:
Total rings Mazda: "Hey Dave, your RX-8 customers are using fully synthetic oil"
Mazda : "We know, there is no problem with that"
Total: "well, you promised us a lot of market share, the rx-8 is popular and we can't sell our oil to anyone else but the dealers"
Mazda: "Would you like to make a synth oil for us?"
Total: "Don't be silly, we haven't got the expertise, let alone the market, for making such thing!... tell your customers to use Total oil or else...!"
Mazda: "What do you want us to tell them?"
Total: "if they don't use our oil, their seals will swell"
Mazda: "We already issued a TSB where we say the problem is non-existant. What else can we do?"
Total: "Tell them if they don't use our oil, their warranty is void!"
Mazda: "Can't tell them that, the manual doesn't say so, what about our existing customers?"
Total: "Ok, tell them there is a remote possibility under extreme conditions that if they don't use our oil, bad things can happen, like carbon deposits on the inlet valves. Put it in the manual"
Mazda: "Ok, too late to change the manual, and it costs money. What about we issue a TSB?"
Total: "Ok, but only for the countries we have a market presence."
Mazda: "Ok, we'll do that"
Tada! result!
I bet Mazda has already contacted a reputable oil producer (Motul, Total's competitor, or Mobil) and asked them to develop a synthetic specifically for the Renesis so that when the next rx-8 comes out, they will then advertise this revolutionary technology called Synthetic for Rotaries.
08-17-2006, 05:11 PM
#49
rock-->o<--hard place
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3,242
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ayrton012
Oil is a big business! Mazda is the only one who make rotary powered cars, so Mazda can say only one oil is good for it!
There's no conspiracy here, despite what others might think
08-17-2006, 09:16 PM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is interesting that the bulletins only come out in Europe where synthetic oil is really synthetic, i.e. group IV PAO.
This is all starting to make more sense now when considering what Yamamoto stated at sevenstock, which is that he didn't like Mobil 1 which is a PAO.
This also is consistent with my experimentation in burning PAO synthetics in that they leave an extremely large amount of sticky residue behind.
This is all starting to make more sense now when considering what Yamamoto stated at sevenstock, which is that he didn't like Mobil 1 which is a PAO.
This also is consistent with my experimentation in burning PAO synthetics in that they leave an extremely large amount of sticky residue behind.
Last edited by turbodiesel_1; 08-18-2006 at 07:42 AM.