My sneaky plan to extend engine life for Series I
03-23-2010, 09:05 AM
#52
Reread my post. I've bolded the relevant lines for you. So yes I think I understand what bse50 is saying, considering how much time I spent searching and reading threads like the MMO Caution thread. But if I misunderstood, then you can explain, right? Sounds reasonable?
Ok, I'm in a good mood so I'll go ahead and detail what my understanding is. MMO is great as a solvent/cleaner but it's not really intended as a lubricant. Many of the experts and regulars on this forum refuse to use it in their RX8, and they say it should not be confused with a premix. One 2-stroke oil that many people on this forum seem to have confidence in is Idemitsu, which they say is a true premix for the purpose of lubricating that also has some cleaning ability.
Still, part of bse50's language is a bit ambiguous, specifically the part about crappy engine oil reducing deposits around the oil nozzles. Because it sounds like crappy engine oil can clean carbon deposits but that that's not something you want from your engine oil. But you want that ability in your premix. So I find that a bit confusing.
I also noticed in the MMO Caution thread that you, TeamRX8, said you don't agree with "all the magic elixer BS." What do you mean by that? Are you saying you don't believe in using premix? Or you believe in premix as a lubricant but not as a cleaner? And yes, I read every single post of every page of that thread.
Ok, I'm in a good mood so I'll go ahead and detail what my understanding is. MMO is great as a solvent/cleaner but it's not really intended as a lubricant. Many of the experts and regulars on this forum refuse to use it in their RX8, and they say it should not be confused with a premix. One 2-stroke oil that many people on this forum seem to have confidence in is Idemitsu, which they say is a true premix for the purpose of lubricating that also has some cleaning ability.
Still, part of bse50's language is a bit ambiguous, specifically the part about crappy engine oil reducing deposits around the oil nozzles. Because it sounds like crappy engine oil can clean carbon deposits but that that's not something you want from your engine oil. But you want that ability in your premix. So I find that a bit confusing.
I also noticed in the MMO Caution thread that you, TeamRX8, said you don't agree with "all the magic elixer BS." What do you mean by that? Are you saying you don't believe in using premix? Or you believe in premix as a lubricant but not as a cleaner? And yes, I read every single post of every page of that thread.
Last edited by ArXate; 03-23-2010 at 09:56 AM.
03-23-2010, 09:43 AM
#53
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a few extra ideas. (feel free to troll these if you are so inclined)
keep the air filter clean. especially the lifetime clogmaster 5000 filters
avoid stop and go traffic jams. your oil temp will be higher than during races lol. take a route that keeps you moving, even if it's a few miles longer. you will be less stressed too.
use the best gas you can get. backfires/detonation/whatever from poor octane are not cool
never lend out your car
keep the air filter clean. especially the lifetime clogmaster 5000 filters
avoid stop and go traffic jams. your oil temp will be higher than during races lol. take a route that keeps you moving, even if it's a few miles longer. you will be less stressed too.
use the best gas you can get. backfires/detonation/whatever from poor octane are not cool
never lend out your car
03-24-2010, 11:53 AM
#54
Quite a few people have pointed out that the stock paper air filter is likely the best. I wouldn't disagree. I've run 2-stroke motorcycles at 20:1 premix with fewer carbon deposits in the exhaust pipe than what the RX8 has with ~400:1. It's not clear to me why the 8's exhaust is so sooty.
03-24-2010, 12:27 PM
#55
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it runs sooo rich? at the track its fairly easy when comparing 20 rx8s that ones with modded ecu maps have white exhaust tips while stock have black sooty ones.
03-25-2010, 09:48 AM
#56
Well yes, but the question is why they need to run so rich. Some have suggested that at high rpm's, the mixture goes 'pig rich' to keep the cat temps down with the restrictive stock exhaust. Even so, I get the soot mess after long easy highway cruising. From the airplane world, one knows that running on the rich side of idea will make more power. Is the stock map set rich to get the ~10% more power? Running rich is also an anti-detonation measure. Given modern electronics, knock sensors and the like, why cant the ECU adjust the mixture leaner during light-throttle operation (which is where we run on the street most of the time)? Or, as in the case with many cars now, why not have a "sport" and "economy" button to switch between 2 maps?
Last edited by HiFlite999; 03-25-2010 at 10:10 AM.
03-25-2010, 10:04 AM
#57
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Well yes, but the question is why they need to run so rich. Some have suggested that at high rpm's, the mixture goes 'pig rich' to keep the cat temps down with the restrictive stock exhaust. Even so, I get the soot mess after long easy highway cruising. From the airplane world, one knows that running on the rich side of idea will make more power. Is the stock map set rich to get the ~10% more power? Running rich is also an anti-detonation measure. Given modern electronics, knock sensors and the like, why cant the ECU adjust the mixture leaner during light-throttle operation (which is where we run on the street most of the time)?
what you said was suggested, is dead on. the cat on the 8 barely survives as it is, if you take that rich spike out in the middle of the torque band(where the most heat is made) you'll fry the cat in no time at all.
I have no cat, and i get temp readings from the cat section of the pipe(secondary O2 sensor). I no longer have the rich spike we speak of, but i'm by NO means super lean or anything. i regularly see cruising temps of 940 CELCIUS, and i've seen it get very close to 1,000C under harsh conditions. the OE cat wont take that. In fact the ONLY cat anyone has found(and mentioned) that will handle that kind of repeated heat is made by HJS, and sells for $1,000-1,500 depending on the current exchange rate.
03-25-2010, 10:31 AM
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thats my understanding of it as well the extra fuel is used to keep the cat alive. which dosnt seem to work overly well since im already on my 3rd with 140 000km.
03-25-2010, 10:34 AM
#59
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agreed, there are 2 problems with whats happening in most cases. 1) even with the fueling effort, the cat is pushed to its thermal limits. 2) all that unburnt fuel dumped into the cat kills it just the same(differently, but dead either way)
just loose the cat, get rid of the rich areas(and get a much better overall tune) and make sure you have capable ignition(coil/plug/wire)
you can do all that for under $1500. based on my personal experiences, if you have no other mechanical issues, you can make that back in a couple years in fuel alone.
just loose the cat, get rid of the rich areas(and get a much better overall tune) and make sure you have capable ignition(coil/plug/wire)
you can do all that for under $1500. based on my personal experiences, if you have no other mechanical issues, you can make that back in a couple years in fuel alone.
Last edited by paulmasoner; 03-25-2010 at 10:37 AM.
03-25-2010, 03:47 PM
#61
for one, the knock sensor on the 8 is practically totally useless unfortunately. How lean do you want to go, i sit at stoich cruising around 4K?
what you said was suggested, is dead on. the cat on the 8 barely survives as it is, if you take that rich spike out in the middle of the torque band(where the most heat is made) you'll fry the cat in no time at all.
I have no cat, and i get temp readings from the cat section of the pipe(secondary O2 sensor). I no longer have the rich spike we speak of, but i'm by NO means super lean or anything. i regularly see cruising temps of 940 CELCIUS, and i've seen it get very close to 1,000C under harsh conditions. the OE cat wont take that. In fact the ONLY cat anyone has found(and mentioned) that will handle that kind of repeated heat is made by HJS, and sells for $1,000-1,500 depending on the current exchange rate.
what you said was suggested, is dead on. the cat on the 8 barely survives as it is, if you take that rich spike out in the middle of the torque band(where the most heat is made) you'll fry the cat in no time at all.
I have no cat, and i get temp readings from the cat section of the pipe(secondary O2 sensor). I no longer have the rich spike we speak of, but i'm by NO means super lean or anything. i regularly see cruising temps of 940 CELCIUS, and i've seen it get very close to 1,000C under harsh conditions. the OE cat wont take that. In fact the ONLY cat anyone has found(and mentioned) that will handle that kind of repeated heat is made by HJS, and sells for $1,000-1,500 depending on the current exchange rate.
What sort of improvement do you see by taking the richness out of your fuel maps?
03-25-2010, 04:37 PM
#62
Instead of spending $1500, I'd rather spend $2500 (an extra $1000 for the "cocktail shaker" like TeamRX8 uses) and be able to stand the smell of my own car. At this point, even before buying an AccessPort, I am considering getting a high-end cat like Team uses, so I don't have to worry about my mods and tuning killing the marginal OEM cat.
03-25-2010, 07:21 PM
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but with that $1500 your able to change your tune. which gives you quite a few benifits less fuel usuage, more power and with out all that added fuel you dont notice the smell no where near as much being cat-less. you only get 1 of those with a $1000 cat.
edit i re read and realized your werent saying just get the cat but get the cat along with the tune
edit i re read and realized your werent saying just get the cat but get the cat along with the tune
Last edited by nate340; 03-25-2010 at 08:58 PM.
03-26-2010, 01:13 PM
#65
...pondering...
Are there shops other than Mazda capable of doing the MSP-16 reflash or are those maps Mazda only (as in they don't sell/provide them to other auto servicers)? I have record that I got a reflash in 2008 but I'm not sure which one and the dealer here is quite poor at customer service so I'm not 100% sure they actually did it though the receipt says they did. After reading this it seems like an obvious thing to double check but I don't want to pay the $100 they say they will charge me since I'm past warranty.
03-27-2010, 07:06 PM
#67
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04-01-2010, 02:13 AM
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fuel consumption? when on Mazda's OE calibration, i got the same mpg as anyone else. 17-19 hwy/mixed. now i get that much at EU hwy speeds(170kph cruise) and i easily see 25+MPG at US hwy speeds.
i havent had a need to have the AP out in quite a while, but perhaps one day if i remember i'll go make logs and see if i cant show you just how much fuel is being wasted on the OE tune
04-01-2010, 12:24 PM
#69
i havent had a need to have the AP out in quite a while, but perhaps one day if i remember i'll go make logs and see if i cant show you just how much fuel is being wasted on the OE tune
so dont gut the cat, fork over the dough and get the HJS cat. the Euro is down right now so it wont be as expensive as it has been. then you can still cut the cat protection richness out of your tune and still have a cat, no CEL, etc
04-02-2010, 02:24 PM
#70
Stock vs. Aftermarket air filter
Back to the reliability thread - I pulled the airbox and accordian out to install the BHR coils. The previous owner had installed an aftermarket filter about 4k miles ago and I found some small grit on the "clean" side of the induction system.
Here are two air filters, one new stock, and the other an AFE aftermarket. Both held in front of the same florescent light at the same distance.
Of course the aftermarket is gonna flow a little more air - IT'S FULL OF HOLES!
Other aftermarket filters may be better or not. Since Mazda risks paying for wrecked engines if they fail from passed dirt, they have a vested interest in making theirs filter well. I'm staying stock and forgo the miniscule power gains by going aftermarket. I'd welcome a similar comparison using a K&N or other filter if anyone wants to make the test though.
Here are two air filters, one new stock, and the other an AFE aftermarket. Both held in front of the same florescent light at the same distance.
Of course the aftermarket is gonna flow a little more air - IT'S FULL OF HOLES!
Other aftermarket filters may be better or not. Since Mazda risks paying for wrecked engines if they fail from passed dirt, they have a vested interest in making theirs filter well. I'm staying stock and forgo the miniscule power gains by going aftermarket. I'd welcome a similar comparison using a K&N or other filter if anyone wants to make the test though.
04-12-2010, 12:59 PM
#71
Are there shops other than Mazda capable of doing the MSP-16 reflash or are those maps Mazda only (as in they don't sell/provide them to other auto servicers)? I have record that I got a reflash in 2008 but I'm not sure which one and the dealer here is quite poor at customer service so I'm not 100% sure they actually did it though the receipt says they did. After reading this it seems like an obvious thing to double check but I don't want to pay the $100 they say they will charge me since I'm past warranty.
Interesting i'm kinda in the same boat here as well, i checked with Mazda CAN and they are giving me a hassle in getting my recalls done based on warranty and that my RX-8 is an American car...but i really want to get this reflash done for some modifications.
Is there any other location or a DIY method to get this flash done??
Very informative thread as well, kudos HiFlite.
Thxs
10-18-2010, 09:54 AM
#73
Extraordinary Engineering
10-18-2010, 10:02 AM
#74
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Back to the reliability thread - I pulled the airbox and accordian out to install the BHR coils. The previous owner had installed an aftermarket filter about 4k miles ago and I found some small grit on the "clean" side of the induction system.
Here are two air filters, one new stock, and the other an AFE aftermarket. Both held in front of the same florescent light at the same distance.
Of course the aftermarket is gonna flow a little more air - IT'S FULL OF HOLES!
Other aftermarket filters may be better or not. Since Mazda risks paying for wrecked engines if they fail from passed dirt, they have a vested interest in making theirs filter well. I'm staying stock and forgo the miniscule power gains by going aftermarket. I'd welcome a similar comparison using a K&N or other filter if anyone wants to make the test though.
Here are two air filters, one new stock, and the other an AFE aftermarket. Both held in front of the same florescent light at the same distance.
Of course the aftermarket is gonna flow a little more air - IT'S FULL OF HOLES!
Other aftermarket filters may be better or not. Since Mazda risks paying for wrecked engines if they fail from passed dirt, they have a vested interest in making theirs filter well. I'm staying stock and forgo the miniscule power gains by going aftermarket. I'd welcome a similar comparison using a K&N or other filter if anyone wants to make the test though.
10-18-2010, 10:19 AM
#75
Aftermarket filters may make more power simply because they filter less! Then again, they also clog up faster than their paper counterparts.
And 9k i have tried using those links showing the comparison of filters in numerous testings, but the links appear to be permanently down. If you have the files saved on your pc, could you send them me way?
Thanks!