MMO-Caution as a premix
04-12-2010, 01:49 PM
#151
Good discussion> I used to be a strong advocate for premixing. Now I simply do not know. I have not seen any imperial or incidental evidence of the value?
It is doubtful from my end that I ever will? Mazda certainly is not going to test this.
I am beginning to think it is more heat related (hot spots, different metals etc),bad combustion (as in carbon formation) and too high of rpm's that is the issue/issues? But, again I do not know for sure.
MM I hear what you are saying. I do disagree on the more consistant rpms however. I am much more consistant rpm wise on track than i am on the street. On track i am between 4K and 7.5K --a 3.5K spread. On the street-- I am 1K to 5-6K a lot--shifting gears, redlights, starts, idling etc.
Very true on the load part--but is load having anything to do with the seals? Are light loads harder on the seals than heavy loads? I do know that light loads and substained high rpms are NOT good. But I havnt heard of heavy loads being a problem with apex seals---heck they leak all loads and rpms!
E pellet? E shaft oil injectors, ---it would be an interesting disscussion.
Bearings are another world also.
Now i have seen evidence of increased sealing of the apex's with pre mix in the 1 1/2 to 2 oz per gallon range. We can thank RB for doing that. I do feel that can be of help on track. But on the street that level of premix may not be something people will want to do.
Now I remember that the oil "injectors " from the mop do not "inject"---they weep and the seals wipe them---thats how i understand it? But, the oil injectors on the e shaft---yep it sprays--as in there she blows!
It is doubtful from my end that I ever will? Mazda certainly is not going to test this.
I am beginning to think it is more heat related (hot spots, different metals etc),bad combustion (as in carbon formation) and too high of rpm's that is the issue/issues? But, again I do not know for sure.
MM I hear what you are saying. I do disagree on the more consistant rpms however. I am much more consistant rpm wise on track than i am on the street. On track i am between 4K and 7.5K --a 3.5K spread. On the street-- I am 1K to 5-6K a lot--shifting gears, redlights, starts, idling etc.
Very true on the load part--but is load having anything to do with the seals? Are light loads harder on the seals than heavy loads? I do know that light loads and substained high rpms are NOT good. But I havnt heard of heavy loads being a problem with apex seals---heck they leak all loads and rpms!
E pellet? E shaft oil injectors, ---it would be an interesting disscussion.
Bearings are another world also.
Now i have seen evidence of increased sealing of the apex's with pre mix in the 1 1/2 to 2 oz per gallon range. We can thank RB for doing that. I do feel that can be of help on track. But on the street that level of premix may not be something people will want to do.
Now I remember that the oil "injectors " from the mop do not "inject"---they weep and the seals wipe them---thats how i understand it? But, the oil injectors on the e shaft---yep it sprays--as in there she blows!
04-12-2010, 08:22 PM
#152
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One thing that is seen on motors that run alcohol injection when under boost is a very clean engine inside. Brian's engines (BDC) show no carbon internally when taken apart. I looked at one on New Years. Just a little varnish but that was it. Even the intake runners were very clean. His engine would take very little effort to get clean and I'm willing to bet you wouldn't even have to scrub any of the parts. This was due to the fact that gasoline and not oil or premix is the single largest contributor to carbon buildup. Nothing else even comes close. Everyone wants to blame oil metering for carbon. As long as people blame carbon on that, they'll never get rid of it. It may contribute a very small amount but we aren't talking about the days of having it run down the intake manifold under the carb consuming 2 quarts per thousand miles. We're way past those days.
04-12-2010, 08:49 PM
#153
Oil doesn't cause carbon. Gasoline does and contaminants in the oil (which are usually gasoline) do as well.
The primary difference between current rotaries and previous version are the ports and the direction that flow takes through them.
This is why the Renesis carbons-up more than the REW.
The primary difference between current rotaries and previous version are the ports and the direction that flow takes through them.
This is why the Renesis carbons-up more than the REW.
04-12-2010, 08:55 PM
#154
Yet something doesn't compute. I think there are three owners on this site with over 150,000 miles and all three do primarily long highway driving. It seems hwy cruising is through empirical observation easier on the engine.
Last edited by ArXate; 04-12-2010 at 09:05 PM.
04-12-2010, 09:31 PM
#157
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OD - are you running that much premix on the track? No additional fouling? I have my first event in Mid May. I was thinking of running 1oz per gal until I read this.
04-12-2010, 11:29 PM
#158
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I have been casually playing with rotaries for some years now and was always under the impression that MMO is not acceptable for a 2 stroke lubricant because of it's clean and easy burn characteristics. My take is that the renesis has carbon build up issues due to the unreliable ignition system, which causes misfires/carbon build up. Later on, it is not as easy to expel it from the engine no matter how many stupid high rpm shifts someone makes due to the location of the exhaust ports. How many engine replacements occurred after a faulty ignition coil(s) were diagnosed. Am I way off base here?
I don't know how many car meets I go to and half of the cars have dropped cylinders and run like crap while the adoring car enthusiasts are completely ignorant to the fact. As useless it would be here, I'm willing to bet a good percentage of rotaries that 'lope' or aka misfire are praised by owners or others by crediting it to the almighty overlap of a sick port job.
In my opinion premix is a must. It does the job of the stock oil injectors but in a much more encompassing fashion, as well as reduce wear of seals by not recycling the junk floating around already. If you think premixing is too much of a 'hassle,' or kills your chances of passing emissions then I'm sorry you feel that way and your 'rotary experience' as a whole will be diminished.
I don't know how many car meets I go to and half of the cars have dropped cylinders and run like crap while the adoring car enthusiasts are completely ignorant to the fact. As useless it would be here, I'm willing to bet a good percentage of rotaries that 'lope' or aka misfire are praised by owners or others by crediting it to the almighty overlap of a sick port job.
In my opinion premix is a must. It does the job of the stock oil injectors but in a much more encompassing fashion, as well as reduce wear of seals by not recycling the junk floating around already. If you think premixing is too much of a 'hassle,' or kills your chances of passing emissions then I'm sorry you feel that way and your 'rotary experience' as a whole will be diminished.
04-12-2010, 11:36 PM
#159
Power!!
I'd like to trumpet my average and uneventful 12K miles Of multiple track days, weekend getaways, backroad day trips and trips to the hardware store over the past 2 years since my motor was rebuilt. I have premixed consistently with Idemitsu. 
My car still starts and runs and spanked a Series II R3 at the Bremerton Alfa day about 3 weeks ago.
My car still starts and runs and spanked a Series II R3 at the Bremerton Alfa day about 3 weeks ago.
04-12-2010, 11:50 PM
#160
I don't know how many car meets I go to and half of the cars have dropped cylinders and run like crap while the adoring car enthusiasts are completely ignorant to the fact. As useless it would be here, I'm willing to bet a good percentage of rotaries that 'lope' or aka misfire are praised by owners or others by crediting it to the almighty overlap of a sick port job.
04-14-2010, 07:47 AM
#163
I don't think i would purchase a rotary powered vehicle if i lived in a high heat climate, or a city. I will take my mountain roads in a nice cool climate, thank you.
I rip through the first 4 gears on an everyday occasion, as often as i can. No premix, castrol gtx 10w-30, soon to be coil upgrade. My engine WILL last over 100k miles no sweat.
Us northern guys don't worry about much, especially not our revved out engines.
I rip through the first 4 gears on an everyday occasion, as often as i can. No premix, castrol gtx 10w-30, soon to be coil upgrade. My engine WILL last over 100k miles no sweat.
Us northern guys don't worry about much, especially not our revved out engines.
04-14-2010, 08:05 PM
#164
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the heat or the city is not the problem,.... it's mostly the crap we love to put into the engine!
I don't think i would purchase a rotary powered vehicle if i lived in a high heat climate, or a city. I will take my mountain roads in a nice cool climate, thank you.
I rip through the first 4 gears on an everyday occasion, as often as i can. No premix, castrol gtx 10w-30, soon to be coil upgrade. My engine WILL last over 100k miles no sweat.
Us northern guys don't worry about much, especially not our revved out engines.
I rip through the first 4 gears on an everyday occasion, as often as i can. No premix, castrol gtx 10w-30, soon to be coil upgrade. My engine WILL last over 100k miles no sweat.
Us northern guys don't worry about much, especially not our revved out engines.
04-14-2010, 08:53 PM
#165
Obviously putting anything in the engine not otherwise stated in the users manual, is purely up to the risk user, which is not my problem, or Joe Schmoe's down in Las Vegas.
04-14-2010, 09:36 PM
#166
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Cant get them, not going to put the liability on the techs who helped me out. Few locals have seen them and down the road it may not be a problem to have them posted up.
Ive talked with alot of 8 owners who are not on this forum and do nothing but highway driving and run 5w-20 on their 04's and the car runs flawlessly... Really seems like hit or miss to me. Like any engine eventually it will fail and we will most likely never really know a direct cause. The only thing all the cases have in common is that something did not work.
Ive talked with alot of 8 owners who are not on this forum and do nothing but highway driving and run 5w-20 on their 04's and the car runs flawlessly... Really seems like hit or miss to me. Like any engine eventually it will fail and we will most likely never really know a direct cause. The only thing all the cases have in common is that something did not work.
04-14-2010, 09:57 PM
#167
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04-14-2010, 10:04 PM
#168
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Yea, i think everyone would agree that the natural design of the rotary has flaws. I really want to know if that can be fixed? Personally i have a bonus check sitting in my stock account and im ready to do this V-8 swap, however i would prefer to spend 5k having my engine built solidly for boost but it does not look like even with money that can be reliable... Love the car, but im just unsure about how i should go about getting more reliable power with a moderate level of reliability.
04-16-2010, 01:52 AM
#169
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every engine design in the world has "flaws" of one kind or another...I'm sure everyone would agree?....the fix really depends on what you want to do with the engine. Too many dumb mods can = broken engines, and I don't believe all the cry babies who say "but I followed all the blah blah...and it still broke", but continue to pour crap into the oil and fuel!!
Yea, i think everyone would agree that the natural design of the rotary has flaws. I really want to know if that can be fixed? Personally i have a bonus check sitting in my stock account and im ready to do this V-8 swap, however i would prefer to spend 5k having my engine built solidly for boost but it does not look like even with money that can be reliable... Love the car, but im just unsure about how i should go about getting more reliable power with a moderate level of reliability.
04-18-2010, 09:46 AM
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right...agree. Like MMO......it's lighter fuel mixed with a light oil and a fancy smell! I wouldn't experiment with something made in 1923 to unclog (allegedly) carbs when aviation fuel was full of lead!!!
The reason most people pour "crap" into their fuel is because many people have followed the owners manual and had the engine fail prematurely. The "crap" is experimental at best and is used to help prevent premature failures by providing extra lubrication to parts of the engine that are not affected by the oil injectors. Heavier weight oil seems to be a must in warmer climates, premix is still very debatable, and driving it like you stole it/highway driving seems to be a common theme in the higher mileage engines.
I don't believe everyone that comes on the forum and says "I did x, y and z and my engine failed" either. Most people tend to forget to tell you something they did that was stupid or don't realize they did something wrong. There are more videos on youtube and everywhere else of people installing a new exhaust, turning the car on(engine still cold) and then revving the bloody **** out of it. Or someone reving to 9k rpm on a cold engine down the street.
I don't believe everyone that comes on the forum and says "I did x, y and z and my engine failed" either. Most people tend to forget to tell you something they did that was stupid or don't realize they did something wrong. There are more videos on youtube and everywhere else of people installing a new exhaust, turning the car on(engine still cold) and then revving the bloody **** out of it. Or someone reving to 9k rpm on a cold engine down the street.
04-18-2010, 10:31 AM
#171
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Yeah the failures are all over the place. Up until two years ago I drove from New Braunfels to San Antonio daily since purchase. My first engine died at 22k, all highway, redlined daily, 93 octane only. My second engine died after 75,000 miles, all highway, redlined daily, 93 octane, but on Castrol 10W-30.
04-18-2010, 11:20 PM
#172
The reason most people pour "crap" into their fuel is because many people have followed the owners manual and had the engine fail prematurely. The "crap" is experimental at best and is used to help prevent premature failures by providing extra lubrication to parts of the engine that are not affected by the oil injectors. Heavier weight oil seems to be a must in warmer climates, premix is still very debatable, and driving it like you stole it/highway driving seems to be a common theme in the higher mileage engines.
I don't believe everyone that comes on the forum and says "I did x, y and z and my engine failed" either. Most people tend to forget to tell you something they did that was stupid or don't realize they did something wrong. There are more videos on youtube and everywhere else of people installing a new exhaust, turning the car on(engine still cold) and then revving the bloody **** out of it. Or someone reving to 9k rpm on a cold engine down the street.
I don't believe everyone that comes on the forum and says "I did x, y and z and my engine failed" either. Most people tend to forget to tell you something they did that was stupid or don't realize they did something wrong. There are more videos on youtube and everywhere else of people installing a new exhaust, turning the car on(engine still cold) and then revving the bloody **** out of it. Or someone reving to 9k rpm on a cold engine down the street.
this was before the first flash that added oil to the engine. at that point the damage was done..
you might rethink your thoughts. some of us have say over 100k miles of experience..
hey, but what do i know..
beers
04-19-2010, 10:39 AM
#174
Also, using this forum as a metric for "why haven't we seen more 100k+ mile engine stories" is pretty useless since this is a place where people go to vent their sense of failure, not where the average owner goes to trumpet his success at being perfectly average and uneventful.
Wat!
That's exactly the reason why I come here.
To let everone know I'm boring and average, except for some reason I havve an RX8 in the garage and not a Civic.
gigdy gigdy goo!
04-19-2010, 10:46 AM
#175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArXate
I think there are three owners on this site with over 150,000 miles and all three do primarily long highway driving.
Your full of **** MM global warming is based upon three trees and their rings.
His sample is Valid.
Originally Posted by ArXate
I think there are three owners on this site with over 150,000 miles and all three do primarily long highway driving.
His sample is Valid.