GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Heh heh, that depends on your exhaust & maps.

But you nailed it - don't drive around banging the engine off the revlimiter all the time. Just provoke the beep a few times a day (after you get the oil up to temp, of course).

TrochoidMagic

MMO is prolly the last thing i'll try...

before i got a chance to restock idemitsu, i got some pro honda GN2 genuine 2 stroke oil from a motorcycle specialist shop...

had no problems with it so far. and seems like a rather safe premix to use, being its at least for motors that needs to maintain clean ports, low ash, carbon,etc... similar characteristics and needs of a rotary engine. made for fuel blending and use in a 2stroke motor...

THIS seems like a better alternative than using a fluid of unknown designated use.

TrochoidMagic

^^for me, the problem with that it seems

it actually cost $5.99.... which amounts to more per bottle of idemitsu, if i get it by the case.

so i am only gonna juggle between the 2 from here on out.

i am sure a motorcycle shop is somewhat widely available to get premix oils from. rather than having to "settle" for some TCW3 or premix of other uses at a local auto store...

or even using some snake oil...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Why would you use this stuff as a pre-mix? Isn't the point of pre-mixing to add lubricant to your fuel?
This stuff isn't a lubricant.

paulmasoner

iTrader: (1)

dissolves carbon like a motha though..... afterall it is a solvent

too bad it flashes WAY below temps you'll see in a running engine. it might have use in a seafoam type application, suck it in, let it sit, etc... but when seafoaming works just fine, who wants to test this stuff out?

redcopper06

dayum so that stuff is about as far away from a lubricant as you can get

it's full of solvents!

p.s. all thanks for your patience. as far as my "relearning" i do enjoy the fact that the reni has a dry sump oiling system. definitely a +1 for our rides

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I don't know what "FP+" is or why you would use it.

Gas, oil and water.
If you want to premix, use a proper premix (a 2-cycle oil or an oil designed for premix like Idemitsu).
That is it. There is no need for anything else, ever.

TrochoidMagic

like what MM and myself said. a designated 2 cycle oil or idemitsu... it doesn't get easier than that.

if fp+ is a cleaner... do you want a cleaner in ur tank every fill up? would you seafoam every fill?

having a harsh cleaner constantly in ur tank can cause unneeded harmful wear...

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

As a counterpoint, there is the mysql rebuild thread where his engine showed excellent wear & low carbon after 25k, using Idemitsu and FP+ as the premix, so there is at least some evidence that FP+ coexists well with premix oil.

And, some of us are condemmed to short commutes in the winter, and there is a real fear of carbon buildup under those circumstances. An ounce of FP+ per tank gives me some peace of mind on that front.

kster

I don't know which product is safe to use. But after reading the premix thread, it sounds like FP+ is very mild when used at 1-2oz per tank. At least that's what this post and the ones after it suggest:
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=968

Nubo

the MSDS can be misleading; it doesn't seem to list ingredients in order of percentage. dichlorobenzene is a real small part of the mix, iirc -- something less than 0.5%. Iirc, MMO is 70% light oil. People can argue about whether an SAE 5 oil is adequate for a supplemental pre-mix or whether it's degrading the oil film, but it's not correct to say that MMO is "mostly solvent". It's mostly oil. I spilled some on the garage floor, wiped it up, and still slipped and nearly broke my ***. It lubricates.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Seafoam is the same stuff as MMO!
Its all light oil and naphtha!

You'll believe anything, won't you?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Then try clicking on the MSDS sheets I linked in my post!

ALL of these products are just light oil, naphtha and isopropyl alcohol, none of which will convert hardened chunks of crud in your engine into "graphite lube".

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Here is the MSDS for the FP crap:

http://www.lcdinc.com/docs/MSDS_FP60.pdf

They hide behind the "proprietary mixture" thing, but if you read between the lines, you can see it is mostly the same stuff as all the other high-zinc oil additives.

Nubo

I can only surmise that "napthenic hydrocarbons" encompasses a wide range of fractions or compounds. I've handled both SeaFoam and MMO, and judging by feel, they are quite different. SeaFoam seems much closer to a pure solvent, with very little lubricity or viscosity -- similar to lighter fluid. MMO has a viscosity and oil-type lubrication that can be felt between the fingers.

These are matters of degree, of course. At some point, the distinction between "light oil" and "solvent" gets blurry and even 20W50 can be a "solvent". I have used MMO as both oil and solvent. For example, cleaning and lubricating bicycle chains. I clean with a batch of MMO, and remove excess and allow the solvent portion to evaporate. The chain stays "oily". For the lubrication phase, I supplement with motor oil -- straight MMO does work, but this way the oil film lasts longer. It's really this experience that led me to believe that a similar approach to rotary lubrication would be feasible. I.e., a combination of motor oil from the OMP and MMO premix. Of course, this isn't a bicycle chain, but neither is it your typical 2-cycle engine. Hard to say what's really going on in there. Would be nice to get those pictures but I notice they're not forthcoming.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

You clean and lubricate your bicycle chain at 10 BAR and 1700°F?

Nubo

My disclaimer failed!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

lulz.

Flashwing

The primary issue with any of these solvents or additives whether it's premix or otherwise is there is and never will be any definitive evidence to support whether or not this stuff actually provides any benefit other than lowering octane or emptying your wallet.

I've used Idemitsu premix since about 20,000 miles on my RX8's motor. I've got about 96,500 on the factory motor. As far as I can tell the motor is still rather healthy even after running over 50 lbs of nitrous through the motor. Still, you can't conclude anything because over 100,000 miles of use there are changing driving conditions and maintenance.

I've used nearly every oil viscosity and about 4 different brands. I've also used the Sohn adapter for about 40,000 miles. If we cracked my motor open tomorrow there would be little hard evidence to suggest my methods were proper or poor.

So, if anyone is looking for a smoking gun you're not going to find it. However, that doesn't exclude the ability to look at these products and make some educated guesses.

Frankly I think the issue of carbon buildup whether on the apex seals or exhaust ports is seriously overplayed. Not that it's irreverent but that it's not the serious danger it's made out to be. Perhaps Jeff could tell the story about the 12A with serious miles on it and how it had better compression than many new RENESIS engines after it was coaxed back to life.

I've been fielding numerous PM's and emails from people worried that if they don't constantly fight carbon buildup that their motor is going to seize or explode.

My opinion, professional or otherwise, is as long as you drive the car through the RPM range, keep good fluids in it and don't treat the motor like it's something fragile then you'll enjoy it for a long time.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Excellent post, Flash.

I do worry a bit in the winter, since I never get the oil fully up to temp in my commute and it's hard to get good pulls on the throttle, so I run FP+. But, I suspect a vigorous drive every weekend would be enough to keep the carbon gremlins at bay.

robrecht

It's only serious if your engine fails.
Notice BDC is only talking about premix, not any other kind of other additive. I wouldn't add anything on a regular basis that would harm oil films. As for UCL or FP+ or MMO, the real question IMHO is whether there is such a thing as a lubricious cleaner? 2-stroke itself seems to be lubricious cleaner, better than dirty 4-stroke. And most 2-stroke oils have cleaning/lubricity additives already, the same that's in Lucas UCL so we're told (polybutene), so would it help to add a little more? Polybutene, cyclohexanone, I always hated Chemistry.

Flashwing

I'd be curious to know if these engine's have anything in common.

I'm willing to bet most of them have owners that won't drive their RX8 hard for fear that it will fall apart.

zoom44

First I want to correct my previous post in this thread. If you want to pre-mix for lubrication you should be using a 2 stroke oil intended for pre-mix. as was written by Jeff above "That is it. There is no need for anything else, ever. "

As a cleaner I think MMO is fine but its not intended as a lubricant.

As for carbon build up- it is the highest cause of Renesis failures. Period.

But the cause of the carbon build is the real culprit. look at the places with the highest rate of failures and where they first surfaced. Texas , California, Las Vegas, AZ. Florida and a couple Major met areas like Chicago and DC. The common denominators are heat and traffic. The majority of the failures were (especially in the beginning) with AT cars that had only one oil cooler.

When you mix high ambient temps with sitting in traffic for long periods and inadequate oil cooling you get carbon and poor sealing. that causes seal failures, lack of compression and engine replacement.

BTW thats not only my opininion that what i know based on QMD conversations and emails.

So as flash said "drive the car through the RPM range, keep good fluids in it and don't treat the motor like it's something fragile"

SheffieldSteel

Zoom, it sounds like you're telling people: look for the root cause of the problem, and then address it logically.

That works for scientific/engineering types, but not so well for folksy/religious types. They prefer an authority figure to lay down the law.

JinDesu

iTrader: (2)

Then all Zoom needs is to tag this to the post.