Genom

You are mistaken I think. People are NOT saying they are going to ignore it and not care. Look at the amount of research done on these forums so far. DO you honestly think this will stay unresolved? As soon as all this issue gets published in some Mag 3 months from now it's going to be a huge deal and Mazda will lose a lot more than a couple hundred customers.

I think people need to relax and continue to follow the issue. But freaking out and getting pissed, etc is not the way. Also, from your email it seems you do not have one of the cars, so I dont think you can really comment on what it's worth to each person individually, and how important the missing power is. For example, I do not give a rats *** about it. If mazda never ever compensates me in any way for this missing power, it does not matter to me. I drove the car and judged it was worth the money as I tested it. Wether this was the published numbers or not is insignificant to me as the car feels fine. Now if it was something serious that would affect my enjoyment of the car, that would be another issue. But as it is the car behaves exactly how I felt it when I tested it and I thought that car was worth the money. if the numbers dont match up, it's ***** measuring on a grand scale and I dont care about it.

Skyline Maniac

If you don't give a rats *** about the horsepower issue, then doesn't that mean you don't care? If you don't even care about compensations, then in your opinion the power issue isn't even worth fighting for. If nobody cares about missing 30-40hp from a sport car, then it's just one more thing Mazda can get away with while consumers suffer. If early owners and potential buyers with the knowledge of power deficit do not speak up, then future consumers suffer as a consequences.

You say magazine published issues will make a big deal out of the situation forcing Mazda to address the problem... sure~ but if none of the owners speak up about the problem, how would the magazines and media know the problem even exists?

akrx8

where do you get 30 or 40 hp from skyline,did you skip math class or something?the car is supposed to be around 204 t0 207 at the wheels.last dyno was 189.7,lets just go low at 189. 207 minus 189 = 18hp,not 30 or 40.im not trying to rile your feathers here but if your going to post about this issue get your facts stright.

Genom

And you need to actually read what I post rather than interpret something from it when you have no idea who I am. Dont you think there's plenty of noise being generated here already? There's been enough of a rucus that if you email mazda they actually know about all the posts on the forum? They are aware we know and we are waiting for a reply. They know it wont be too long before someone gets pissed and sue's. Simple. I dont give a rats *** because I already know it will be resolved. Is that easier for ya?

Maybe if you tried going out for a relaxing drive in your favorite car you wont be so stressed.

Hercules

It's not that I don't care about the horsepower issue... I do.

However, it's a near guarantee that if the car winds up being say, 210 horsepower and they cannot remedy that, then Mazda will step up and refund the price of the car because they did not offer a car that suits the price of the $31,100 that mine is retailing for.

If they don't want to refund it, then I am sure there will be a long line of lawsuits on Mazda and it won't take long for them to change their tune. I will be in line for that as well, though I think it will not come to that.

What I fail to realize is this... if I can hand time my car to get 6 seconds on the dash to 60, and computer car mapping programs tend to agree that a 5.9-6.0 second sprint to 60 is fitting for a car with the gearing ratios, weight, horsepower and torque of the RX-8, then why is everybody complaining? If you can trust the results of the CarStats type programs that are very accurate in estimating times with other cars and their horsepower, why not with the RX-8? It just seems rather ludicrus.

That said, I think the issue is a non-issue to say the least. And if it *is* an issue, it will work itself out.

I'm not going to cry like a little baby and whine about it, because it's already been done by so many others. I don't feel the need to 'express myself' because it's been done and Mazda has heard us already. Now we just need to be patient and see what results are to come. I think Skyline, if the G35C had a power deficiency on PAPER, and not in actuality... you'd be crying about it right away and really loud; your words alone here have shown that you care very little for the characteristics of a car that are not judged on paper... you want the car that's the best on paper.

You have it. Now go drive it and get lost.

mystrx8

LOL! I'm pretty new to this forum, but I have to say that I really like Herc's demeanor.:p

On the other hand, after reading all of the posts in this section, and all of the arguements one way or the other, I just don't get the big deal anyways.

Let's see:
1) Those of us who bought an RX-8 for one reason or another preferred it over anything else out there that we could buy.

2) The car apparently to all of us was a blast to drive until this issue with ECUMAPRWHPWOT thingamabob stuff started coming out on green engine dynos, and now many of us either are looking for buybacks or lawsuits.

3) It is very obvious that other potential buyers are looking at this forum before purchasing whatever car they choose to own (no wonder that since 07/24/03 I am still the ONLY RX-8 seen on the road so far in the Memphis, TN area).

I believe that I have to concur with many others when I say that this "missing HP" situation will be rectified in time. All I see it doing in the present is mentally ruining a great driving experience IMHO. If Mazda comes back with a statement that the HP is not there, then cross the bridge when we (the owners) get to it. If the car, through a series of scheduled service visits recovers more and more HP, then great. If the ECU suddenly changes and develops a treasure trove of power, then we owners will be happy indeed, and other car owners will be scrambling around trying to justify why they bought whatever other car that they purchased. In either case, I feel that having 247 hp in a lightweight four-door, four seated sedan/sportscar hybrid with all of the characteristics of a "true sportscar" sold me because it gave me the best of both worlds as no other car could in fitting my personality. I'm willing to be patient and enjoy my ride rather than sit around sick of paying a monthly note on a car that only makes me upset so far "in theory" and then only expecting to be happy after about 20,000 miles. Life is too short for such crap.

Hercules

And people think I'm abrasive... :D

Skyline Maniac

Geez, still bitter after all this time eh~ :D

TybeeRX-8

Check out this thread!

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8903

What does this tell us about A/F ratio and/or timing??

1stRX8

The only dealer based rotary mechanic I trust has contacted the "Project Manager" for the RX-8. I don't know what that really means but he did tell the guy the hp issue and the response was that he has not seen a car that makes more than 190 rwhp. I told him that mine is around 180 and he had no response. He [Mazda corporate] did say that the drivetrain should acount for 20% in the same breath.

Lets summerize:

247hp - 20%loss = 198hp [a little less than the 205 to 210 I expected- 20% still excessive]

"He has never seen one develop more than 190 at the wheels"
190rwhp would represent a 23% drivetrain loss [excessive I think].

The average of 4 dyno pulls on my car was 180hp. This, as we all know, is a 27% loss.

Basically, Mazda is avoiding this one. They know that it will be a while before someone goes to the trouble to pull one, build a fixture, and put it on an engine dyno for ore proper testing. They are buying time. The service guy [who is sharper than average] reminided me that the 2nd and 3rd gen 7's had a mileage switch at about 20k miles to protect Mazda from excessive warranty claims - the warranties were 36k if I remember correctly. That's a different thread. He called it [the mileage switch] a fuse. When I asked what that meant, he told me that the circuit worked by the ECU measuring miles, at the 20k mark it would overload the fuse to break it. When the ECU is powered on with the open fuse it uses a totally different fuel map. I had assumed it was more digital than that. If it is merely a fuse, can we open it ourselves? My guess is that it is a tiny surface mount unit that looks like a capacitor or resistor and is probably covered in epoxy to prevent tampering.

He said he will continue to dig up an answer about the mileage switch possibility on the RX-8, he did not know if it existed. He did say it would very un-like Mazda to NOT to have one but the exact implimentation could be very different from previous models.

Can anyone volunteer to drive constantly for 20k miles to see what happens? I would do it if I could get 8 weeks vacation from work.

It sounds like all this coming down to the warranty dept. saving bucks. Understandable, but very annoying that nobody is talking.

I have an appointment tomorrow with a fairly high ranking Mazda guy to pick his brain. Is anyone else digging into Mazda? Have I missed any good threads?

zoom44

actually Paul Yaw has already pulled the engine and mounted it for engine testing. he has as of yet not responded with his dyno runs with charts etc. but you can find his remarks here.

ibfubar2000

maybe if enough of us call mazda customer service they will relize they have a problem. they dont seem to realize it is a huge issue with us. so maybe if everybody called so they get lots of complaints they will look into it more.

strong bad

OK, I've only read up to pg 9 of this thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything...

After reading PY's reassuring posts about the ECU, I felt a bit more at ease. But then I got to thinking..."If it's just a matter of a switch at x amount of miles, how come Mazda hasn't already come out and said so?" My reasoning goes further in that Mazda's bound to be aware of the information that is being spread on this board (based on the testimonials that you guys offer regarding calling/writing representatives). And if a simple explanation concerning the ECU (assuming it is in fact the culprit) would calm us down....why the silent treatment?

If they really did get 247hp, that is to say, they're telling the truth, and not just making this up...wouldn't Mazda have enough knowledge about the ECU or amount of miles required to hit full potential? Then, they could offer a disclaimer that you need 20k miles or so to reach it. Are they choosing not to say anything for fear that it will deter prospective buyers? To me, that's the only explanation for no response on Mazda's behalf. Otherwise, I'm beginning to doubt this theory. Unfortunately, I cannot offer any speculation of my own...just simply my concern.

At this point, I know most of us are just asking for SOME sort of explanation. ie "Sorry, we overrated the power." or "Yeah, log 20,000 miles and you're all set." Either way, I love the car. That won't change. What might, is my patience and the way I feel about Mazda as I await a response.

omahawk

SB those are my sentiments exactly. I posted Mazda's reply to my question about this. I provided links to all of the posts on the forums and also the dyno charts. They are still claiming 247.

However they did not respond to my question about the ECU switch over. I have emailed them again and will be calling Customer Service later this morning. I don't have my RX-8 yet, I am supposed to pick it up in two weeks, and am holding off until I receive a statement from Mazda that I trust. My dealer is also an infiniti dealer and the G35 SC is looking better the longer this goes on.

elliotshev

When the 2001 Miata came out it also had an over-rated hp rating. They made an error with the new variable valve timing engine as to its hp as delivered in the US. Mazda offered all who purchased these cars, in the USA, to buy the car back or $500.

I know that Mazda is aware of this thread and is looking into the issue. I can only imagine that they will have an answer soon.

I would like to see the data posted from someone who has pulled the engine and ran it on a dyno. This would tell us how close the motor is to the 247hp at the crank, which is where Mazda measures it.

Don't be shy about calling the customer service line and letting them know how you feel about this issue.

sixspeed

Who's the guy over in the Mazdaspeed section that has pulled the Renesis lump from his RX-8 and put the 20B engine in?

Can he not take his Renesis and put it on an engine bench dyno to see what power it is producing? Least that would take all the TC/DSP and drivetrain losses out of the equation and we could see what power it truely is putting out?


-andy-

eccles

He'd need the full intake and exhaust systems, ECU, O2 sensors, wiring loom,..... It's not like the old days of carbs and open headers.

j9fd3s

the 2nd gen literally has a microswitch and a little cam on the odometer. as far as we know all it does is turn on part of the air control valve. although it is FACT that nobody has ever checked to see what it does, just endless speculation

mike

Digisan

I find that quite interesting. Maybe he has Mazda sponsorship and he doesn't want to bite the hand that feeds him.

Hercules

I don't think so but hey... stranger things have happened

Anyhoo...time will tell. I'm getting nearer and nearer to the 5000 mile mark (1700 miles so far) and when I get to 4000, I'll go get my car dynoed too. Then we can just write a big letter to Mazda asking for some money back or a fix for the cars.

Mark Booth

Elliot wrote:
The HP issues with the 2001 Miata was not as significant as the RX-8 appears to be. With the Miata, the rated HP was around 155 and the real world ended up being around 142.

But yet, as Elliot states, Mazda offered to BUY BACK those '01 Miatas (purchased before March 2001). In lieu of the buy back, owners could opt for a $500 prepaid credit card AND free scheduled maintenance for something like 3 years or 36K miles.

If the RX-8 horsepower is as seriously difficent as it appears it might be, Mazda should be offering a lot more than $500 and free maintenance.

Mark

Hercules

Mark, this is why if there is a power deficit, I'm not really worried either way.

If they can't fix it (and I'm happy with the power as it is), then they will offer me something in exchange for it and a lowered price or free maintenence or something... that will be nice.

Skyline Maniac

And if they don't? If they insist there is no such thing as power deficit and the high rpm power fall off is 'just the way it is.' The dyno 35% power loss is perfectly normal for their new platform and engine is A-ok. Then what?

RX-8 Zoomster

I agree. IF it turns out that the HP can't be "recovered", then a good figure would be that the refund should be the same as the percentage of HP lost. So if we are missing 10% of our HP, then 10% refund back to you would be more fair. Almost everyone would like to have the HP's instead of a refund, but something like $3k + back to you would heal some wounds.

IMO, they'll "find" the missing hp's.

Mark Booth

Until recently, my wife and I considered ourselves Mazda enthusiasts. With the exception of a few years here and there, we've had Mazda vehicles in our garage since 1979. While we've never felt Mazda vehicles had the same reliability of, say, Toyota or Honda, we always felt that those few problems we experienced were a fair trade off for the FUN factor. Let's face it, Mazda -above just about all others- likes to make fun-to-drive cars.

Unfortunately, several things have happened to sour us on Mazda. I won't go into it here but suffice to say that we don't consider ourselves Mazda enthusiasts any longer.

When the '01 Miata was released with the claimed horsepower increase, it was the 10th model year of the Miata. The popularity of the car had already been established. Yet, despite this fact, MANY early '01 owners decided to have Mazda buy back their cars. I've heard that Mazda was surprised by the number of people that requested buy backs.

The RX-8 is in its first model year. It's popularity has not been firmly established. This horsepower deficit, if real, is a much more serious matter IMHO. Mazda is reintroducing the rotary to a wary public. The rotary already gets poor gas mileage compared to even more powerful competitors (G35 @ 280HP for example). Fuel prices are again up close to $2 per gallon (here in San Diego). Now folks are finding out that not only are they getting 4-6 mpg less, they allegedly have a bigger HP gap than they paid for.

I don't think buying back the cars or offering a substantial refund will do the trick. Mazda must FIND that missing HP and restore it. Heaven help Mazda and ALL of their model sales if they can't fix this situation and it gets any sort of play in the mainstream media! The last thing Mazda wants right now is a publc relations nightmare.

I used to be a Mazda evangelist. Still love my Miata but I don't think I'll be buying any other Mazda products again.

Mark