Low Compression, New Starter. Now they want oil service records. I need help.
06-11-2012, 02:21 PM
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Low Compression, New Starter. Now they want oil service records. I need help.
Hey guys, so here's the quick of my story.
I had an inkling that my engine was low compression. Big difference in power between the cold engine and hot. Wouldn't start on first or second start once warm (like when getting gas), and somewhat poor mileage (would get as low as 350 km per tank sometimes).
I called mazda canada about when my warranty ends and they told me it was june first 2012. That call was on the first of May.
I took the car in for a compression test. I called Select Mazda (Hamilton, Ontario) in advance and booked an appointment for a compression test, with the reasons above for wanting it. Took the car in and worked from home that day. Got a call that afternoon and they said that they 'ran diagnostics' and found a pending code in the ECU which was for the intake solenoid. Also the battery needed replacing because it 'failed'. I asked about the compression test and he told me that for sure this would fix the problem and that the mechanic was certain this was the issue to the hot start problem. $800 bucks later, I brought the car home and it was absolutely the same as when I took it in. If anything the hot start problem was worse.
Not only that, but my clutch bracket (which was squeeking, but I thought it just needed to be greased or something like that) was actually snapped, and they let me go home with it. They even told me that the clutch felt 'weird' and that it could be a busted hydraulic line/hydraulic fluid soaking into the clutch/something else. Never mentioned (or looked for) a broken bracket.
I called Mazda Canada, and made a complaint about not getting a compression test. They sent an email to the dealership explaining what had happened. About the clutch bracket and the fact that no compression test was done.
So a week later, I brought the car back in (had to get it towed, because the clutch bracket broke when I tried to get the car there).
They were going to replace the bracket asap, and were going to do a compression test for free, but only if the test failed (which is a fair compromise in my opinion). So they call me back and say the compression looks 'up to spec', but the starter is turning at 150 rpms and it's possible that if the starter is upgraded/replaced that the compression will show as bad (which seemed weird to me). So I figured BECAUSE the starter is legit bad, it needs to be replaced anyway, so why not.
So they replace the starter. Run the test and the compression is 'bad', BUT they need to do more tests. The only one I remember that he mentioned was fuel pressure tests. Which makes little sense to me, since that shouldn't affect compression (unless it's lean and detonating, I guess?).
Got a call today. Tests were sent to mazda canada and they agree that the compression is 'off' but now need all oil change records. The car has JUST under 100,000 km on it, and I bought it at something like 72. So I have absolutely no records for anything below that. Apparently there are 3 mazda dealership oil changes on record for this car from before I bought it.
So I'm going to try and find oil change receipts and the likes, perhaps use my bank statement records. I don't know. I've had the car for 3-4 years, and only do about 10k kms on it per year, if that.
If I can't find enough receipts, am I screwed? Is this an easy out for them? How can I make sure that I'm getting my engine replaced? I'd really hate to have a car with low compression, 1200+ in repairs that LITERALLY don't fix the main problem, AND not have an engine replacement due to a technicality.
help plz.
tl;dr - delearship has taken 5 weeks and $1200+ in repairs, to tell me that my compression is bad, BUT I need to show all my oil change receipts in order to get to the next step.
I had an inkling that my engine was low compression. Big difference in power between the cold engine and hot. Wouldn't start on first or second start once warm (like when getting gas), and somewhat poor mileage (would get as low as 350 km per tank sometimes).
I called mazda canada about when my warranty ends and they told me it was june first 2012. That call was on the first of May.
I took the car in for a compression test. I called Select Mazda (Hamilton, Ontario) in advance and booked an appointment for a compression test, with the reasons above for wanting it. Took the car in and worked from home that day. Got a call that afternoon and they said that they 'ran diagnostics' and found a pending code in the ECU which was for the intake solenoid. Also the battery needed replacing because it 'failed'. I asked about the compression test and he told me that for sure this would fix the problem and that the mechanic was certain this was the issue to the hot start problem. $800 bucks later, I brought the car home and it was absolutely the same as when I took it in. If anything the hot start problem was worse.
Not only that, but my clutch bracket (which was squeeking, but I thought it just needed to be greased or something like that) was actually snapped, and they let me go home with it. They even told me that the clutch felt 'weird' and that it could be a busted hydraulic line/hydraulic fluid soaking into the clutch/something else. Never mentioned (or looked for) a broken bracket.
I called Mazda Canada, and made a complaint about not getting a compression test. They sent an email to the dealership explaining what had happened. About the clutch bracket and the fact that no compression test was done.
So a week later, I brought the car back in (had to get it towed, because the clutch bracket broke when I tried to get the car there).
They were going to replace the bracket asap, and were going to do a compression test for free, but only if the test failed (which is a fair compromise in my opinion). So they call me back and say the compression looks 'up to spec', but the starter is turning at 150 rpms and it's possible that if the starter is upgraded/replaced that the compression will show as bad (which seemed weird to me). So I figured BECAUSE the starter is legit bad, it needs to be replaced anyway, so why not.
So they replace the starter. Run the test and the compression is 'bad', BUT they need to do more tests. The only one I remember that he mentioned was fuel pressure tests. Which makes little sense to me, since that shouldn't affect compression (unless it's lean and detonating, I guess?).
Got a call today. Tests were sent to mazda canada and they agree that the compression is 'off' but now need all oil change records. The car has JUST under 100,000 km on it, and I bought it at something like 72. So I have absolutely no records for anything below that. Apparently there are 3 mazda dealership oil changes on record for this car from before I bought it.
So I'm going to try and find oil change receipts and the likes, perhaps use my bank statement records. I don't know. I've had the car for 3-4 years, and only do about 10k kms on it per year, if that.
If I can't find enough receipts, am I screwed? Is this an easy out for them? How can I make sure that I'm getting my engine replaced? I'd really hate to have a car with low compression, 1200+ in repairs that LITERALLY don't fix the main problem, AND not have an engine replacement due to a technicality.
help plz.
tl;dr - delearship has taken 5 weeks and $1200+ in repairs, to tell me that my compression is bad, BUT I need to show all my oil change receipts in order to get to the next step.
06-11-2012, 02:35 PM
#2
sounds like you were getting the run-around.
As for the compression test, they need to run it at 250rmps to get an accurate reading, not 150. Also, did they provide you with the actual numbers of each rotor face?
Oil receipts are the key to having your warranty approved. Without them, you're SOL (in most cases...).
I'm drawing a blank right now, but I remember reading somewhere that there is a loophole that allows a purchaser of a used car to be exempt of previous ownership maintenance. Something to do with the dealership reselling a void car?
Anyways, this is something that you may want to seek legal advice about...
As for the compression test, they need to run it at 250rmps to get an accurate reading, not 150. Also, did they provide you with the actual numbers of each rotor face?
Oil receipts are the key to having your warranty approved. Without them, you're SOL (in most cases...).
I'm drawing a blank right now, but I remember reading somewhere that there is a loophole that allows a purchaser of a used car to be exempt of previous ownership maintenance. Something to do with the dealership reselling a void car?
Anyways, this is something that you may want to seek legal advice about...
06-11-2012, 02:54 PM
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Canadian laws may differ in this regard, but in the US, technically a dealer can indeed deny warranty claims if you don't produce all records, even from when you didn't have the car. However, most don't make that unreasonable expectation. The fact that you have ~30,000 miles of records should be sufficient, since if it was failing when you bought it, no amount of maintenance would have been able to keep it running this long. And this is in addition to the point that failing to change the oil doesn't cause worn seals and low compression. It would mean a seized engine. Dealers asking for oil change receipts aren't really asking for proof that the failure isn't owner caused, just for an indication that you did your due diligence as an owner to maintain the car.
06-11-2012, 07:07 PM
#4
wow, starter? really ?
if it's me I will tell them this, I took my tester out just to make this pic.
Got an older version of the tester? there is ALSO a 250 rpm button.
Still using the heated tip pen version of compression tester? guess what, they DO have that option on it too. So don't try to fool me.
Dude, they freaking raped u. That's just so freaking wrong.
if it's me I will tell them this, I took my tester out just to make this pic.
Got an older version of the tester? there is ALSO a 250 rpm button.
Still using the heated tip pen version of compression tester? guess what, they DO have that option on it too. So don't try to fool me.
Dude, they freaking raped u. That's just so freaking wrong.
06-11-2012, 10:42 PM
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I'm also going to call mazda canada tomorrow morning, and see what they have to say about it.
Every time he's talked to me, he's told me that they've sent 'their findings' to mazda canada, who are going through my information and the info the dealership has given them (i.e. compression ratings, etc)
Okay, so in your opinion (easy e1 and nycgps et al), what would you do? How can I get them to turn around the 1200 bucks in charges? I still think the 800 for the intake valve and the battery should be reversed. Can I go through mazda canada for this?
It just seems like it's been the compression (and I'll give them that the starter spinning at 150 is 'bad', but it could be absolutely dead, and still not affect compression, right?
Do you guys have any ideas on what my next step (aside from oil records) should be?
Oh, also!
It's 30,000 kms that I've owned it for. Closer to 25,000. Which equates to 15,000 miles. Not really a lot of mileage in 4 years. Would you guys expect 6 oil changes?
Every time he's talked to me, he's told me that they've sent 'their findings' to mazda canada, who are going through my information and the info the dealership has given them (i.e. compression ratings, etc)
Okay, so in your opinion (easy e1 and nycgps et al), what would you do? How can I get them to turn around the 1200 bucks in charges? I still think the 800 for the intake valve and the battery should be reversed. Can I go through mazda canada for this?
It just seems like it's been the compression (and I'll give them that the starter spinning at 150 is 'bad', but it could be absolutely dead, and still not affect compression, right?
Do you guys have any ideas on what my next step (aside from oil records) should be?
Oh, also!
It's 30,000 kms that I've owned it for. Closer to 25,000. Which equates to 15,000 miles. Not really a lot of mileage in 4 years. Would you guys expect 6 oil changes?
Last edited by xpingux; 06-11-2012 at 10:43 PM. Reason: added some extra.
06-12-2012, 04:06 AM
#7
what is the oil change interval they ask for in Canada? if they ask for 7500 oil change, then 5 oil change is more than enough.
You should ask the dealership for a refund on the said parts, cuz those parts "OBVIOUSLY" DID NOT fix the problem. pretty much like u walk into Best Buy to get a new laptop battery, cuz after 2 years and 15 million recharges your Li-Ion battery is worn out. Then the salesman there sell u a brand new A/C adapter, cuz they said "oh, a new A/C Adapter will charge your old battery no problem"
if I were u, I will buy a Starter and battery myself, swap it, and bring those "parts" back to them and tell them to give me a refund. takes no more than 20 minutes to swap the starter and 10 minutes TOPS to change the battery anyway.
*P.S. I don't shop at Best Buy, Major rip off. LOL*
You should ask the dealership for a refund on the said parts, cuz those parts "OBVIOUSLY" DID NOT fix the problem. pretty much like u walk into Best Buy to get a new laptop battery, cuz after 2 years and 15 million recharges your Li-Ion battery is worn out. Then the salesman there sell u a brand new A/C adapter, cuz they said "oh, a new A/C Adapter will charge your old battery no problem"
if I were u, I will buy a Starter and battery myself, swap it, and bring those "parts" back to them and tell them to give me a refund. takes no more than 20 minutes to swap the starter and 10 minutes TOPS to change the battery anyway.
*P.S. I don't shop at Best Buy, Major rip off. LOL*
Last edited by nycgps; 06-12-2012 at 04:09 AM.
06-12-2012, 05:01 PM
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So what would you suggest I say to the dealership? Just outright ask for a refund on the solenoid and the work done?
I mean, if they did the compression, we'd be at this point weeks ago, right?
Do I have a chance in hell for that to work?
I mean, if they did the compression, we'd be at this point weeks ago, right?
Do I have a chance in hell for that to work?
06-12-2012, 05:10 PM
#9
tell them straight up, just be like hey, u said this and that will fix the problem, obviously it didn't, so are you going to give me a refund now? I'm ready to give you back all the parts you "installed" and I will have my own.
I really doubt they gonna do anything. if they start throwing bullshit like oh we need to replace the intake solenoid (I assume it's SSV) in order to test compression. Print the workshop manual out of the engine compression test page and ask them which part in the work shop manual saids you need to replace that to do compression test? I don't see it, please enlighten me.
the chance of them giving you a refund will be slim, cuz I can tell they have been scamming people left and right for ages. Well, at least u can **** them off. but do it after they're done with the engine replacement tho. (or if Mazda approves ur engine replacement, ask them can I do it elsewhere, then you go back to this dealership and ask for refund and **** them off)
I really doubt they gonna do anything. if they start throwing bullshit like oh we need to replace the intake solenoid (I assume it's SSV) in order to test compression. Print the workshop manual out of the engine compression test page and ask them which part in the work shop manual saids you need to replace that to do compression test? I don't see it, please enlighten me.
the chance of them giving you a refund will be slim, cuz I can tell they have been scamming people left and right for ages. Well, at least u can **** them off. but do it after they're done with the engine replacement tho. (or if Mazda approves ur engine replacement, ask them can I do it elsewhere, then you go back to this dealership and ask for refund and **** them off)
Last edited by nycgps; 06-12-2012 at 06:23 PM.
08-28-2012, 10:42 AM
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hey guys, first time poster on the forum, not trying to hijack the thread but didn't want to start a new one since my issue is somewhat related to the OP. I recently bought an 8 that seemed fine. A few weeks ago the CEL came on and it was P0302 ( rotor 2 misfire). Since the cel came on i have replaced all 4 coils and leads, the spark plugs are pretty much brand new as well (done less than 100 miles). I cleared the code only for the cel to pop on again. eventually i replaced the cat and the cel popped on again always with the same code P0302.
Anyway, i just returned from my local mazda dealership where i had a diagnostic done along with a compression test and this is what they said:
found miss fire cylinder 2 p0302, cat, coils, leads & plugs all ok.....suspect its an old code.
carried out compression test, found to be under spec
RPM 210 Low
Rotor 1 5.4 5.4 5.6
Rotor 2 4.8 5.4 4.6
What i want to know is this, what is the likelihood of fitting the updated starter motor resulting in somewhat normal compression? am i totally screwed?
The mazda dealer seems to think that by fitting the updated starter N3Z1 i would get much better results. I am a little concerned however because while going through the car's history, i noticed the apex seals had been done before, surely thats a sign there was an underlying problem right? i have spent so much on it already that i just want definitive answers which is why i am here. sorry for the long post oh btw its a 2005 192ps with 68k on the clock 5 speed manual transmission with absolutely no mods.
Anyway, i just returned from my local mazda dealership where i had a diagnostic done along with a compression test and this is what they said:
found miss fire cylinder 2 p0302, cat, coils, leads & plugs all ok.....suspect its an old code.
carried out compression test, found to be under spec
RPM 210 Low
Rotor 1 5.4 5.4 5.6
Rotor 2 4.8 5.4 4.6
What i want to know is this, what is the likelihood of fitting the updated starter motor resulting in somewhat normal compression? am i totally screwed?
The mazda dealer seems to think that by fitting the updated starter N3Z1 i would get much better results. I am a little concerned however because while going through the car's history, i noticed the apex seals had been done before, surely thats a sign there was an underlying problem right? i have spent so much on it already that i just want definitive answers which is why i am here. sorry for the long post oh btw its a 2005 192ps with 68k on the clock 5 speed manual transmission with absolutely no mods.
Last edited by aaron84; 08-28-2012 at 10:45 AM. Reason: adding useful information about the car
08-28-2012, 12:00 PM
#13
No one did the "apex seals" at any dealersip...so wherever you got that info it is wrong....
The starter will not improve the compression..the reading will just be higher because of the speed.... Thats why the readings are "normalized" to 250 rpms to make interpreting the results easier
I would check the ESS...and test the coils with a spark tester to see if they are working...it isn't totally unheard of for a new coil to crap out...or a new plug for that matter
The starter will not improve the compression..the reading will just be higher because of the speed.... Thats why the readings are "normalized" to 250 rpms to make interpreting the results easier
I would check the ESS...and test the coils with a spark tester to see if they are working...it isn't totally unheard of for a new coil to crap out...or a new plug for that matter
08-28-2012, 12:31 PM
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thanks for the reply. your comments have left me a little confused to be honest. i am looking at paperwork showing cost for parts fitted and work done for 'seal apex', 'spring apex seal' and 'spring outer apex se'. I would have thought mazda appropriately tested the parts you listed surely? or am i over-estimating them?
just so i'm clear on what you're saying about the compression in relation to the starter, i will see higher figures simply because its a faster starter?
as far as the ESS goes. i checked it and it is clean, never got any codes for it either...well until i got it back today and it popped p0335 on me. Thing is though, i cleared the code and it has not as yet returned after a long drive and it had never ever previously come on. I'm guessing it was down to mazda messing with the car today during the diagnostics. your feedback is greatly appreciated seeing as i'm not that technical.
just so i'm clear on what you're saying about the compression in relation to the starter, i will see higher figures simply because its a faster starter?
as far as the ESS goes. i checked it and it is clean, never got any codes for it either...well until i got it back today and it popped p0335 on me. Thing is though, i cleared the code and it has not as yet returned after a long drive and it had never ever previously come on. I'm guessing it was down to mazda messing with the car today during the diagnostics. your feedback is greatly appreciated seeing as i'm not that technical.
08-28-2012, 12:49 PM
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Wow, the dealer actually put on the 'work done' list references to internal engine parts?
If they didn't take the engine out of the car (several hours), disassemble it and re-assemble it (minimum of several more hours), then put the engine back in the car (still a few more hours), there is no way they can "fit the parts".
A diagnostic compression test is literally pulling the spark plugs, inserting the tester leads in place of the spark plugs, and cranking the engine with the starter. A few prep steps, but that's it.
Sounds like you are getting fed a line of BS.
If they didn't take the engine out of the car (several hours), disassemble it and re-assemble it (minimum of several more hours), then put the engine back in the car (still a few more hours), there is no way they can "fit the parts".
A diagnostic compression test is literally pulling the spark plugs, inserting the tester leads in place of the spark plugs, and cranking the engine with the starter. A few prep steps, but that's it.
Sounds like you are getting fed a line of BS.
08-28-2012, 12:52 PM
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sorry, maybe i wasnt very clear. the apex seals which i have paperwork for was from may 2012, the diagnostics and the compression test was from today. the apex seal work was done over a few weeks from 20th of april through to 14th of may.
08-29-2012, 09:57 AM
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Just an update on my side:
I approved them putting in a new starter, and as of last week they put the new engine in. I asked if they'd do a compression test before handing it over to me, but the lead guy told me that mazda wouldn't do it for free. Seems a bit unreasonable, since I've been without a car for 3 months.
Also, what are the chances of me just walking out with my keys and not paying the bill? The repair they did that would 'fix the issue' was all BS. $800+ CAD for a new battery, and replacing the intake manifold sensor/valve thing. Those were NOT the problem, and I paid for the work. So I don't think I should pay for these repairs (which are less expensive than the last repairs).
What do you guys think?
Also, the stuff happening to aaron84 is messed up. Also, if the comp test is low call mazda USA, make a ticket under your vin number, and tell them that they told you that compression is low, if yours is a 2005, it's still under warranty for the engine, and you should hold them to that. Don't back down.
I approved them putting in a new starter, and as of last week they put the new engine in. I asked if they'd do a compression test before handing it over to me, but the lead guy told me that mazda wouldn't do it for free. Seems a bit unreasonable, since I've been without a car for 3 months.
Also, what are the chances of me just walking out with my keys and not paying the bill? The repair they did that would 'fix the issue' was all BS. $800+ CAD for a new battery, and replacing the intake manifold sensor/valve thing. Those were NOT the problem, and I paid for the work. So I don't think I should pay for these repairs (which are less expensive than the last repairs).
What do you guys think?
Also, the stuff happening to aaron84 is messed up. Also, if the comp test is low call mazda USA, make a ticket under your vin number, and tell them that they told you that compression is low, if yours is a 2005, it's still under warranty for the engine, and you should hold them to that. Don't back down.
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