zoom44

Reading a post by blueadept on the uk forum brought to mind this question.

can the dealer legally re-flash your pcm without getting your informed permission?

anytime work is done on your car, whoever does the work has to get permission. they need your signature authorizing the work. re-flashing the pcm falls under this rule akaik. if the a service person said your water pump was bad and you asked, they would have to tell/show you what was wrong so you were informed enough to make a decision whether you wanted the repair done or not.

so doesn't it stand to reason that if they want to flash your pcm they should have to tell you what, if any, changes the flash will make? and if you dont want them to do it they shouldnt be allowed to OR if they did it without you knowing the changes wouldnt they be legally bound, if you asked, to put it back to the previous settings?

its MY car. My property. they cant just go changes things on it without my permission. right?

zoom44

thoughts? anyone?

scottmhr1

You have to assume it is standard procedure to update things like this for most car companies. It is supposed to be an improvement in the car. Why would you even question this unless you received one that you feel caused a problem with the car.

Nemesis8

iTrader: (3)

I think the bank owns it right now

I found that getting to know your mechanic helps. In my case, (name withheld), tells me everything. If I tell him to flash the PCM he will do it. If I tell him not, he will not do it. I always ask for him to work on my car, and nobody else.

I got the the "N" without even making an appointment. He just brought out the WDS to my car and flashed it.

So, this is going to be tricky at best.

Sigma

I don't see if it's warranty work why they need your permission. Maybe technically they do, but I dunno if that's followed to the letter. I've taken in a number of cars from various manufacturers to various dealers and it's not uncommon for me to hear "Recall XXX needed to be performed and we knew we had enough time before you'd be back so we went ahead and replaced YYY for you".

Aseras

service it voluntary. if you brought it in for an oil change and they flashed the pcm I'd be pissed. if you brough it in because of unknown trouble and they flashed it to try and fix it that'd be diffrent. I fully expect to be notified of any major modification to my car, including anything on the cpu.

zoom44

eurpean/uk cars do not come with cruise control. no buttons on the wheels etc. they found that by getting the buttons installed and running a wire(was missing fromt he harness) voila they have cruise. it was already turned on in the PCM they just need the buttons. now the newest wds update there has been programmed to turn the feature off. which means any future update will also turn it off. thats teh basis for this question- can they change your car like that without your permission? if they do it can you make them take it back to the way it was?

but i want to know beyond that particular case. is changing the software the same as changing a piece of hardware? you own the car. shouldnt it be your choice? lets take the pie adaptor people for instance. could Mazda go in and change the head unit with a different one so the pie thing doesnt work anymore?

RX8-CARL

It's your car so legally I think you are right.
The question is why don't you want what is said to be an improvement too be done?

snap-on

According to the Mazda warranty P&P manual you must authorize all repairs prior to it being performed. Case in point..when the Firestone/exploder recall on the tires hit the streets several customers wanted to run the original tires for as many miles as the could before they got them replaced. It was our responsibility to inform them the recall was still open on the vehicle...but if they refused we could not replace the tires.

As far as "flashes" go we are in new territory here. When these PCMs became generic and the WDS could flash the car for a certain issue, dealers would address the problem with the latest update. The WDS can not simply add the file to address the concern...it adds all the files up to the latest level. If you are on "M" and you come in for a A/C issue the new fix is to flash the car to "P". When I flash the car...ALL the files get updated. (Greddy unfriendly)

derwankel

Interesting question. In the computer world, source code belongs to the original developer/owner and you are given a right to use. Updates are pulled, not pushed.

With the RX-8, the car has a warranty that says MAZDA will fix defects free of charge for some period of time. Generally speaking, they define what is a defect. They have a fiduciary and legal responsibility to maintain the car in safe working order. In a lease or loan the financial institution expects their property to be maintained. I don't think anyone would have much legal recourse if MAZDA offered an enhancement to the performance (talking overall safety here ... not 0-60) and the consumer turned it down and then was found culpable in an accident resulting from that refused maintenance.

In the case of the cruise control, they are simply disabling a service that was not offered and warranteed in the first place. By leaving that functionality active they open themselves to legal action when something goes wrong with a car as a result. Their techs are not trained to support and maintain that service and leaving it active would be like not fixing a loose wire that shocks the driver when they turn on the headlights. It' s a "loose wire" that they should not have allowed to exist in the first place. A defect they are fixing. Without ongoing maintenance and support of the cruise control circuit they could be held liable. All an owner has to say is "gee your honor, MAZDA left the circuit active. How was i to know I wasn't supposed to use it?"

Once you refuse on-going maintenance you shift responsibility for what happens to the car to yourself and away from MAZDA. No different than refusing medical treatment.

... I could be wrong though.

RotaryIT

Personally I think that you should be able to refuse the service, however, I would also expect that if you chose to refuse a "hotfix" so to speak, then you would be choosing to run your vehicle outside of Mazda spec....I guess it would depend on whether or not it is voluntary or required. Given that my car was on the lot for several months, and was never reflashed, never had the rotors painted, never had any of the open TSB on it performed, when Mazda says that all cars on the lot and sold must be repaired according to the TSB.

I would find it very strange if you can't get a dealer to perform a repair based on a TSB and you have to argue, but they will perform the reflash without asking or stating that they are planning to do so.

My dealer has done anything that I didnt ask them to do, on the other hand, they also claim that there are no open TSB's for my car, which I know is not true.

Lazy or just want to save potential labor hours for "real" repairs? They dont get paid the same rate per hour for warranty work do they?

Sorry for the long winded post.

Nubo

Devise a locking mechanism where they can't plug into the PCM unless you enable them.

Is cruise control prohibited in those countries?

This is an interesting issue. Extensive computer control makes the design very malleable. That's a good thing in terms of being able to correct problems or make improvements. A bad thing if it makes the car "worse". The problem with firmware in general (cars, computers, etc.) is that the provider often makes it impossible to fall back to the previous version. On the other hand, it does prevent a certain amount of chaos.

MyRxBad

iTrader: (1)

I think they were saying that Cruise control is illegal there and that was the reason cruise control wasn't offered.

With it being illegal and a safety issue, this is going to be a tough one.

zoom44

the rate they get paid for warrenty work by mazda is the same or HIGHER than what they charge a customer

zoom44

its not illegal in the uk or the other countries mentioned elsewhere.

lets say we cant stop them from doing the flashes because of liability on their part( idont believe this but just for instance). then can we insist on knowing what the flashes change about our car? shouldnt they have to inform us what it is doing?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

you can specifically tell them not to do anything without first clearing it with you

they can probably bounce your warranty for intentionally not complying the manufacturer's specifications and conditions

they would only have to tell you the general reason for the change, not the detailed specifics behind it

your best bet would be not to take it in, but then you get no updates and let's say a later update has something you want, well then you have to take all the prior stuff you didn't want in order to get it

zoom44

i sent an email with these questions to the state attorney general's office here in oregon. i will relay any reply

Ellar

Last I heard (in New York), they only have to warn you if the additional work is going to raise the bill by more than a certain percentage above the original estimate.

doccable

Now, this is getting interesting. I'm beginning to wonder what differences exist from state to state, (let alone country to country). "What if's..." are starting to abound. I get my car serviced in Colorado, but I live in Wyoming. I seriously doubt that there are any differences of any consequence, but...

Maybe I need to get my attorney on the phone.
Oh, wait - he lives in Nebraska.

But seriously, please post if you get a reply.

beachdog

derwankel beat me to it. The microcode in the pcm is technically licensed to the owner of the vehicle for use by the owner while driving the car. Same as the microsoft operating system on your computer. If you violate the fine print in the microsoft license agreement, microsoft has the right to take the software away from you and way more punitive damages if they chose. Theoretically, Mazda could totally deflash the PCM if you violate their license. I know, none of us have seen this license, but there is an inferred license. Obviously this would not happen.

Interesting question that has probably already shown up in case law. Anyone here have a lexis/nexis account?

BTW, I work in the computer industry and we have periodically gone to extreme measures to protect our intellectual property. For example, our systems have microcode/firmware which is copyrighted. The firmware is inseparable from the hardware. You never sign a license agreement for the firmware when you buy the computer, but it is inferred. (it is actually written in very small print in the many packages of documentation that arrive with the computer)People think that they can just sell the computer to someone else if they want to. We have actually prosecuted and won cases where we wanted the second owner of a computer to return the firmware (of course this disables the system) or pay a relicensing charge because yes, we own the licensing rights and the first customer did not have the right to transfer his license to anyone else without our permission. Before anyone gets outraged about this, it is rare and is usually only when there are other illegal activities going on. Kind of like jailing Al Capone for tax evasion because they couldn't convict him of anything else.