E85 fuel mix for the RX-8
 

http://www.e85fuel.com/index.php

What is the consensus on using E85 in the Rotary Engine. The MAzda RX8 is not listed as an E85 fuel vehicle but many other are. Would the Renisis be able to handle E85 in it's stock form? I would think so.. :angel:

By the way, I was linked to that website becasue GM had banner add promoting E85..... I can hear the winds of change

Also it is 105 Octane.....turn up the boost.

http://www.gm.com/company/onlygm/liv...=3&carNumber=6

The ECU pobably would need different programming to function on tha fuel. The open loop areas would be too lean. The closed loop areas would probably adapt somewhat to the different Lamba readings...but would not like the amount of fuel it would have to inject to get the proper mixture. The alcohol would probably require different MOP settings as well to ensure the oil wasn't washed out of the rotor chambers....

So I would guess....NO it won't work :D:

the manual talks about it. go read and report back:)

dan call me:)

GM is advertising for E85 because they and Ford, and maybe even Chrysler - not sure, are financial backers.

I believe the manual said "Do not feed after midnight, and never never use E85"

That's a direct quote btw. On page 137.







;)

its actually on page 4-2 as you can see in my post in this previous thread

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=ethanol

it only has 2/3 the energy of gasoline which equates to 10 - 15% lower mileage PLUS you have to run a much richer fuel/air ratio with E85 than gasoline, the lower mileage is offset by the lower cost/gallon, but you just made your gas tank the equivalent 9 gallons or so (guesstimate) if it was on gasoline, hope you like to stop and refuel often

Apparently, the RX8 and most Mazda gasoline engined vehicles can run with a mixture of gasoline with maximum 10% ethanol. Runnig on E85 would require engine hardware and PCM software changes.

Fabrice

And I would like to add that when I moved from Florida (0% ethanol) to Illinois (10% ethanol), mileage in both of my vehicles dropped noticeably. My preference is obviously for no corn in my gas tank :P

Acetone as an additive ???
 

I have a diesel VW golf now in the family, the 1.9 TDI. I was reading on the website, www.TDIclub.com about some peolpe adding 3-4 ounces of Acetone to a tank of Diesel or gasoline and getting increases in full economy etc. (More in gas than diesel)

I posted it here once but no reply, anyone heard of or have any understanding or experience with this chemistry? They claim it does boast milage figure noticably but don't overdo it, max of 3-4 ounces per tankful (i.e. 15 gallons in the gas tank)

Comments ???????
Jeff B.

Acetone? Don't know....but Toluene is one of the more common octane enhancers...can't see how 3 OZ of anything will do much. You need to add a lot to make a difference.

This is why the " Octane booster" additives are ineffective................

search is your freind

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=toluene
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=Toluene
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=toluene
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=toluene
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=toluene

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...hlight=acetone

Acetone in an RX-8
 

I have been using a 4 oz. to 10 Gal. ratio as per Wikipedia link.
Much quicker response (ie. feels like a boost in HP).
MPG only about a +2. Even with lower octane fuels.
Tires seem to break loose easier, so watch it accelerating in curves with DSC off.
Unless you like a little drift!

Renisis and E-85
 

Read the warnings!
Yes E-85 is 105 Octane, but the Alcohol will dilute/pollute the oil.
If you want to try it: I would suggest only one tank, and just before an oil change ; with a flush.

Aluminum does not like stuff found in E-85

Good luck with ur motor.

did some research about the "myths" and the cons of e85... some good news came up... so as it turns out, e85will not in no way harm anything.

Im going to copy paste the ones that are relevant. i did not write these...


1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive?

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?


2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away?

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine?

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more?

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines?

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump?

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.



so basically, unless your driving something older than 1985. you'll be just fine...

Wow, ancient thread bump with misleading information.

Is it better to bump an old thread or start a new one?

Because everything I have read suggests this is accurate :squint:.

have you tested it?

I have test it and it works great, my recommendation is to premix a little extra for precaution

Can you identify the source of the mythbusts in your August 26 post?

And can you describe the tests you performed? And the results? In particular, the effect of E85 on power output and longevity.

Ken

Not personally, but I have read of others attempting it... I was trying to find the post of a guy who ran E85 when I found this topic. I believe he had to solder the connections on his sending unit and cover the wires to protect it from corrosion. Still looking...

And? How does it run? Does it make more power? How many MPGs did you lose?

^This in bold.

I can tell you that the only place likely to host that list is probably a convert-to-E85 website. Although unless there is a material compatible with only 10% Ethanol and not E85 that I am unaware of, it should be considered "accurate." The only way to confirm is to soak parts in E85.

If the RX-8 fuel system wasn't safe with 10% Ethanol there would be engine fires and/or recalls :Freak_ani.

The site linked in the original post in this thread is still there, and does have rah-rah "E85 won't hurt your car" statements - with a disclaimer that if it does they're not responsible.

IMHO, you can add 10% of almost anything to gas and it won't cause dire problems. Remember when it was routine to add a can of "Dry gas" for every fillup in the winter?

I remember the days when racers running methanol would run their cars briefly on gas to purge the alcohol before putting the car away.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for Fernando to back up his statements.

Ken

i have been using e-85 for almost 6 months stray and the only thing that i have see is that i lose around 20 to 25 miles peer tank but i dont care since is cheaper i use my car every day to go every were the only thing that append to my car was the lose of some miles in my tank and in my first tank the mix was all fuck up because the computer takes some time to adjust to the e-85 i have some others friends of mine and they use e-85 to and they dont have any issues with it in their cars, also there is a publication from mazda regarding the use of e-85 in their vehicles and they mention the rx-8 to be safe to use it with e-85 (i'm searching for the message)

:yelrotflm

Did you take your engine apart and inspect it? Did you inspect all the plastics\orings etc of the fuel system? If not you have no data to back your "6months-no problems statement".

Anyway, talking about hard data. E85 requires different pcm trims that go beyond our pcm's auto-adjustability range (roughly +\-20%). So yes, using e85 affects your car.
The fact that it is proven to be corrosive on the housings and each and every scientific test demonstrates that it is detrimental for most fuel systems (and the environment) is clearly less important. lol

you are right about the racers flushing the tanks and the fuels lines of the cars wen they run in methanol and it is because they are using 100% pure methanol and the methanol have a lower point of evaporation so if you left the tank with methanol the tendency is that wen you came back you dont have nothing in your tank and it will corrode or the line ( if you have a car with a metal gas tank ) the same thing happens with regular gas wile you have something in the system no corrosion will show up the problem is wen it gets dry. But remember the ethanol and methanol are to different substances the methanol is a solvent and the ethanol is a antiseptic, even the ethanol you can drink it ( not the e-85 because it have 15% of gas )

http://www.caradvice.com.au/64798/ma...asmania-rally/
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENN...-zoom-zoom.htm

The Furai was mostly for the dumb americans and their "clean fuel" beliefs. Marketing hype. It even caught fire, it no longer exists. sorry.

The second article also states that the whole targa tasmania adopts that fuel, still with the dumb green reasoning behind it (which is fake, btw. Leaded petrol is nearly less polluting than ethanol!).

So? We don't have e85 here for a reason. Costs more and reduces engine life.
Proof of that? With the introduction of ethanol blends your government had to reduce the "average" expected life for the engines by a huge amount. That's it. They say it doesn't harm engines just because they're now required to last less. Smart move!

Video Removed. Keep the topic on the subject and not on others.

is there any reason you started another dedicated thread rather than tack this onto one of the other threads full of the same BS replies that are just as wrong, misstated, or misrepresented as the OP?

The only reason E85 exists is because of the raw materials to make it are available. In the US, it's corn. In Brazil, they use cane sugar. I don't know of anywhere else they use it.

Using food as a substitute for gasoline is a bad idea.

they don't use the corn or the sugar actually they use the residues of it all the other material that we don't use they used to make the ethanol besides the humans have been doing ethanol for centuries in the creation of alcoholic beverages, just remember one day in the future we will run out of oil and we will have to use other type of combustible

You're actually converting food-grade crops to fuel-grade ones. That's why you pay more for general crop-related products (flour, fuel etc) as a result.
I'll add this to what Al says: You only produce so much ethanol because of the subsidies.

while I am not a proponent of E85. Using corn(in this country/time) certainly isnt a bad idea though(in terms of it being food vs fuel). We have hundreds of tonnes of it going to waste every year. even more than gets rotated through "reserve stores"

check it out, im not joking. "food shortages" in the world are a man made fabrication.


Note that the use of subsidies to control the market value is the REASON we toss hundreds of tonnes of corn nearly every year, same thing in Japan with rice

I've always felt there were two reasons for the E85 push in the US. One was to make more money for farmers (agribusiness), who have become a powerful political entitity sucking huge subsidies from the government. The second is to reduce the food supply and starve out third world populations.

It would, however, be nice if they went to pure E100, so that in addtion to flex fuel cars we'd have dual use fuel.:all_cohol

Ken

That would reduce traffic... would you waste the good stuff in your fuel tank? :)

rofl

this simply means you don't know shit about this whole ethanol thing.

if u dunno/unsure of something, might as well stfu. it helps. thanks.

So there was no conversion? Just start using it and the RX-8 will adjust? I'd really be interested in that Mazda message. Also the possibility of an actual FFV conversion so the car would immediately know what was in the tank.

I barely lived through the no-lead transition with a car that needed unleaded. I ultimately succumbed to the R-12 to R-134a transition when my stash of R-12 ran out. I don't want my 8 to go the same way.

My wife is currently shopping for a new car, and flex fuel is high on the requirement list. Not that I like the idea, but I don't want to get caught out. At least her current car, which uses R-134a, will be gone before the transition away from R-134a bites us. I guess we should also look for a new car that's flex-refrigerant.

Ken

Not to change the topic too much, but IndyCar currently uses 100% ethanol. Perhaps they have not been wasting it all on racing, which might explain the quality of officiating in recent races. :40oz:

Ken

The hell it can. The big problem with Gasohol back in the 70's was that it ate rubber and destroyed fuel lines/gaskets. It's still a problem today since an injector o-ring leaking can cause an engine fire. All it takes is the wrong material in an o-ring and eventually they will fail and start fires.

<-Volunteers to take it apart.

If he has 6 months without a fuel leak that is a success. It wouldn't take that long for 10% Ethanol blend to eat through a component and moreso with E85. If Alcohol is exposed to outside air it turns into a stronger acid, vinegar. So the fuel system needs to be air tight or really bad things can happen.

I would still enjoy the pics from the o-rings and fuel components if he ever decided to inspect them. Just to be sure.

The +-20% adjustment is from the base trim. If the base trim is set for E85 than it wouldn't be a problem. This can be accomplished by adding more Ethanol slowly over time or can happen over several fuel ups. Very basic EFI information. Eg. If the base trim is E50 you could switch from a lower Ethanol blend to E85 and back so long as it doesn't exceed the adjustment window.

Kind of silly to say that Ethanol is bad for the rotors and housing since they're aluminum. If they weren't anodized they will corrode naturally from the elements or from the corrosive nature of RF Gasoline.

Are you sure you don't want to discuss running a turbo engine without an intercooler instead? :naughty:

It's proven that ethanol attacks our housings, especially in higher concentrations.

the problem is Corn is not the best thing to make Ethanol. we use it because it's the easily thing to use (widely available)

Not to mention the problem that it brings, both to hardware and humans. but guess what people are ok with stuff that they can't see, even if it would slowly but surely causes problems.

Not if it is anodized.

then u have a lot more to learn about rotary engines.

We could, but that would be off topic. If that's what you want, start a new thread in the Major Horsepower Upgrades thread. I have ideas, but they aren't conventional.

From a more authoritative source:

-Lower fuel economy: while prices for E85 may currently be less per gallon than regular unleaded gasoline (due to current tax incentives), mileage also is lower. Typically vehicles consume 1.4 gallons of E85 for every gallon of regular gasoline they would otherwise use. Additionally, even with its tax incentives ethanol is often more expensive than gasoline.

-Corrosion: because the alcohol in ethanol corrodes aluminum, FFV components are made of stainless steel and E85 pumps must be modified or manufactured with stainless steel to prevent corrosion. Repeated exposure to E85 also corrodes the metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline.

-Cold starts: because E85 has a higher freezing temperature than gasoline, there may be cold start problems in severe cold weather. For that reason, ethanol content is lowered to a minimum of 70 percent ethanol in freezing weather conditions.

http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol.htm

The guy with the badass 20b rx8 (Angeljoelv?) runs E-85. I've never heard him complain about housing corrosion. The whole "it's bad to use a food as gas" argument is a moot point because the corn used is cattle grade and at the end of the process the corn is pressed into cakes and fed to cattle anyways. The fuel tables would definitely have to be adjusted and I would add a sohn OMP adjuster to be safe. I would also run a bigger pump to handle the increase in fuel demand, the injectors should be sufficient though.

The biggest problem with ethanol is the cost. The only way ethanol is competitive with gas is government subsidies. If there were no subsidies it would cost about $5 a gallon on top of the decrease in gas mileage. So as gas approaches those prices you will begin to see e25, e50, e75, e85 with more prevalence.

Another problem with ethanol is cold weather. In colder climates e85 changes to a winter blend I think usually like e50 so the ecu has to be able to change fueling needs pretty easily. Southern areas wouldn't have to worry about that though.

lol usnidc beat me to it

Not to mention massive lobbying by Iowa farmers and by Agribusiness.

Ken