TerenceT

talking to some vw and audi guys yesterday and found couple of them used xylene as a fuel booster

they use roughly 9 part gas and 1 part xylene to get roughly 94 octane. Also noted it's not be be excessed 30% or else lubrican is to be added also

what's the draw back then?

Farsyde

what the hell is Xylene??

TerenceT

it's a tax free paint thinner

it has the same carbon based as gasoline

about $4/gallon

Doctorr

At last,a thread I can get my teeth into!

Xylene is the perfect gasoline.

When oil companies blend their gas, they have to mix the cheap stuff, usually 'straight run' components, with the good (high octane/expensive) stuff. It is a fine balancing act, they run as much of the cheap stuff as they can to meet the octane spec.
Xylene (and its buddy Toluene) are magnificent gasolines. Toluene is about 114 octane, and xylenes can be anywhere from 115 to 121, depending on the makeup of the different isomers.

Both are very high quality fuels.

(Don't confuse octane with energy potential, we mix in a lot of Butane/Propane into the gasoline because it is cheap and has a nice 94 octane, but it is an awful fuel, not dense, no oomph, results in a poor 'drivability' index, another spec we have to meet.)

You can read in various Formula 1 articles of a time when teams ran 80% toluene mixes, until that was banned.

Xylenes have lots of uses outside gasoline, as you know we can sell it for lots o'cash as paint thinner/solvent, and toluene is also worth plenty - we make it into styrene plastic and ship it to Japan. We don't like to have to put it into the gasoline. But gas pays the bills, so if a blend comes up short on octane, in goes just enough 'X&T' to get them out of the jam.

I can assure you that one or two gallons of xylene (or toluene) to nine of good quality pump gas will do wonderful things for your power, from an octane and from an overall power point of view. Trust me, you will not get anything like it from an oil company - most 'race gas' still has Lead additives to boost the octane, not X&T.

It is also relatively simple to work out (roughly, not legal for trade!) your final octane in your tank - just add the octane of the pump gas and the octane of the X/T. So 8 gals of 94 octane and 1 of 114 octane = 866, divide by 9 = 96.2 (if there is no Lead involved, that screws up the result)
It is best to keep it less than 40% of the total, because you are also diluting the other additives, the detergents/anti-static/stability package.

And never believe the crap on the "Octane Booster" bottle - 'adds 2 to 4 octane points' - they mean points as in "point one of an octane" 12 ounces to ten gallons may make 0.1 difference (very expensively!)

On reading back, I see a little 'we' crept in.... I do not speak for any oil company, I am just giving an opinion based on thirty years in the business.
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doc

SPDFRK

Were would one get this, and how much does it cost?

TerenceT

thanks doc
any personal stories on xylene? and long term use? i might need to run that on my wrx at least for summer months

$4/gallon @ sherwin william

something like 5 gallon jugs are a bit cheaper but harder to use

buddy also mention it's better to put the xylene into the red fuel jug before filling up at gas station,

less attention and less freak out

Doctorr

Mr. Terence is right, Sherwin Williams or any paint store is a good source. And the point about decanting into red plastic gas cans is a good one!

Don't worry about screwing up your fuel, ALL (and I do mean ALL) gasoline has xylenes and toluene in it. The government is proposing a 30% limit for total 'aromatics' (that is the name for the family of molecules) but this is just based on the problem of vapors escaping the pump nozzle, aromatics are implicated in smog formation, that is why they are restricted in paint formulas.

Lets help prevent smog - burn 'em up! Put all those nasty ring molecules thru your rotors and out thru your cats, destroy them before they make any smog!
Help your environment by preventing them from being used as paint thinner!!!!.

I would love to see some dyno results - try a run on pump gas, then run a tank full of 'miX' and before it is gone do another dyno run - first one to do it please post!
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doc

SPDFRK

What is the best way to mix, would you get regular gas and add the xylene to get the octane level you want to acheive or is it better to start with premium? Since the doc is in the business I thought you could fill us in on which way is the most cost effective to end up with the most potent fuel. How high is it safe to run the octane? When I plugged in your 30% rule for a fill up of 15 gallons (11.5 gallons of premium (92) + 4.5 gallons xylene (115)) I acheived 105.3 octane. That should be ok to run, right? Depending on your gas prices and using $4 a gallon for the xylene thats about $10 extra a fill up for a tank of "the good stuff". Also with these additives that will now be prevalent in the fuel are there any issues with fuel tank liner, hoses, injectors or even O2 sensors?

Doctorr

That seems like lots, but it would be OK. Once you have 'enough' octane it becomes irrelevant.

Think of it as 'resistance to detonation', if the fuel spontaneously explodes on ignition, that is detonation, all the fuel just explodes at once instead of burning. Once you achieve enough 'resistance' for the timing you are using, any more is irrelevant.

It has nothing to do with 'hot spots' like you will hear sometimes, deposits in the combustion chamber can cause detonation, but usually from occupying space in the chamber, raising the effective compression ratio.

If you are aiming for excellent fuel, then for sure that would do it! And no, that much X/T cannot harm the liner, pump or sensors, they are made for it, like I said, every gasoline has both xylene and toluene as constituents. Some gasolines may even be at the 30% limit, you would not know, and they would not tell you.

Sounds like you have some dyno-ing to do, don't forget to post!
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doc

babylou

That was before the business got real big and they began running stuff akin to rocket fuel. $2000/gallon stuff.

eccles

I remember working trackside at Sandown racecourse in Melbourne many years ago while Juan Manuel Fangio turned a series of demonstration laps in his W196 Mercedes. A few seconds after the car went past each lap, the smell of the exhaust wafted to where we were standing and we all just about fell over. MAN, those were some fumes!

Legend has it that the W196's fuel concoction was so complex that the team included a chemist whose sole job was to mix the juice, and that it was so volatile that the fuel system had to be flushed overnight lest the "gas" eat its way through the tank and lines.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

That sounds like he was using nitromethane.
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babylou

He was.

eccles

According to http://www.gpracing.net192.com/cars/data/432.cfm it was something a little more exotic.

rxeightr

Instead of getting this stuff at the paint store, can you buy it in bulk and save some $$$ ?

SPDFRK

I called a local paint store and they are selling it for $10.45/gallon or $42.20 for a 5 gallon drum. Thats a lot more than TerenceT said from Sherwin Williams and I called my local store and they didn't carry it. I also found Home Depot has liters for $4.** and gallons @ $9.97 is it possible the price has went up that much or did TerenceT quote the liter price?

Farsyde

damn....so much for cheap fuel booster. Although 1 gallon may be enough for a tank.

P00Man

what if you were to run nitrous through your tank?
ive got lots of the stuff sitting around cause my brotherse play with RC-cars, things are damn fast and run on 30 or 40% nitro, it would probably blow your engine or something but itd be a neat expirement.

really dont know much about it, and the stuffs real pricey, but it will make for some good discussion me thinks
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nice **** Webcam

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Can I watch?
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Quick_lude

Question though, would the Renesis benefit from this increased octane boost? Wouldn't the ECU have to be mapped to take advantage of the higher octane?

A lot of people in our club reported hesitation, bogging and other minor problems while using Sunoco94 octane gas which immediatly went away after they switched to lower octane like 91 or 92.

Doctorr

My intent was to provide 'enough' octane, so that the requirements would be well met, and we would not be invisibly losing power to the knock sensor. If Mazda specified a high octane requirement and the sensor detected incipient detonation it would retard the timing, and you would never know, other than if you noticed the missing performance. So enough is enough, any more is only making your gas 'more' resistant to detonation. You are not changing any other characteristic of the fuel.

From a power point of view though, you are definately increasing.
You can make a fine 'high octane' gasoline with lots of C3/C4 (propane/butane, a refinery waste liquid). Lots of octane and the most miserable fuel you ever put in your tank. But xylene or toluene has lots of power, and even makes a difference in the density - average gas would be in the .76 density range, toluene is around .85 - this makes a real difference in the available power per volume (gallon).

Mixes with more than 25% X&T would probably be a little heavy for freezing weather, they would need more heat to vaporize them in the intake, conversely, they would provide a cooler intake charge on a hot day!
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doc

MrWigggles

Doc,

Typically where is the cheapest place to get Xylene? I've seen 55 gallon drums for about $300 but that's the cheapest.

I know you are in Canada but could you give me an estimate in USD/Gal?

-Mr. Wigggles

babylou

That site says that Mercedes were running fule descended from V2 rockets. V2 rockets used alcohol and liquid oxygen. This ain't gonna help unless we are talking Champ cars.

Farsyde

don't do it, the nitro will destroy your engine.

http://www.radiocontrolzone.com/foru...hreadid=133004

Smoker

Can someone explain to me how does the ECU retard the engine timing to prevent detonation ?

I'm not familar with detonation and engine timing in relations to the engine performance. Thanks.