Cumulative Synthetic Oil Discussion
#2126
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1. Between the Mazda TSBs, this archived post from MazdaspeedKB.com, and a bunch of stuff already mentioned here and elsewhere, it definitely seems that people who drive mildly might want to avoid synthetics. People who drive the car as it's meant to be driven should be fine with whatever.
2. Certain papers and oil formulators' statements strongly suggest that ashy additives are important to avoid as well. So, no "performance" oils with hysterical amounts of Ca/Mg/Zn/P/Mo/etc.
Sticking with an ILSAC-rated conventional xW-20 or xW-30 may not be necessary, but it is a convenient way to tick all the boxes without much thought.
Beyond that, yes -- any reasonably additized oil should be fine as long as it matches your driving, and your OCI needs to be sane.
#2127
^ This.
Technically any oil could cause this under the right conditions. But I'd imagine the engine would tend to fail for other reasons first, especially with a synthetic.
As for Royal Purple: It's not awful, so don't let anyone make you **** bricks for using it. But it's not great either and most of the claims behind it are worthless, so it's true that you can do much better.
Technically any oil could cause this under the right conditions. But I'd imagine the engine would tend to fail for other reasons first, especially with a synthetic.
As for Royal Purple: It's not awful, so don't let anyone make you **** bricks for using it. But it's not great either and most of the claims behind it are worthless, so it's true that you can do much better.
#2129
Smoking turbo yay
It's actually quite simple.
Go to your local auto store, see what's on sale, check to see if it's a reputable brand(Pennzoil, Castrol, Mobil 1, Quaker State, etc.), and grab 2 or 3 jugs, done.
Adjust the viscosity as needed. Where I live, 5W20 is fine, but if you live in Texas or California, you might want to consider 0/5W30 or 0/5W40 if you drive hard.
I personally buy either Castrol GTX conventional(not available in 5W20 or 5W30 anymore; it's now a new semi-synth blend) or Pennzoil conventional for CAN$20ish a jug when they are on sale. Synthetics don't go on sales as often, and even when they do, they are still pricier.
IMO synthetic's much better if you don't want to do oil changes as often, but as we can all agree on, it's a good idea to change oil often on this car, so that kills off the main benefit of synthetic.
There is also the more even molecular size of the synthetic oil, but I am not sure how much that will come into play.
Royal Purple is mostly marketing hype. Not that I really care because I never see them locally anyway.
For reference, I use mine as a DD, but I rev the crap out of the car whenever condition allows. If it's rainy out, I usually stay under 5k RPM, but if the ground's dry, I can beeeeeeeep at least once each trip.
I think there is an S1 new owner video made by Mazda that the long-term effects of synthetic oil is unknown and they don't recommend it.
Edit: This is the one I am talking about. Jump to around 4:50 mark.
Go to your local auto store, see what's on sale, check to see if it's a reputable brand(Pennzoil, Castrol, Mobil 1, Quaker State, etc.), and grab 2 or 3 jugs, done.
Adjust the viscosity as needed. Where I live, 5W20 is fine, but if you live in Texas or California, you might want to consider 0/5W30 or 0/5W40 if you drive hard.
I personally buy either Castrol GTX conventional(not available in 5W20 or 5W30 anymore; it's now a new semi-synth blend) or Pennzoil conventional for CAN$20ish a jug when they are on sale. Synthetics don't go on sales as often, and even when they do, they are still pricier.
IMO synthetic's much better if you don't want to do oil changes as often, but as we can all agree on, it's a good idea to change oil often on this car, so that kills off the main benefit of synthetic.
There is also the more even molecular size of the synthetic oil, but I am not sure how much that will come into play.
Royal Purple is mostly marketing hype. Not that I really care because I never see them locally anyway.
For reference, I use mine as a DD, but I rev the crap out of the car whenever condition allows. If it's rainy out, I usually stay under 5k RPM, but if the ground's dry, I can beeeeeeeep at least once each trip.
Only some S2s still have any Mazda engine warranty left, so use whatever oil you like. Just change it regularly.
(BTW, my 2008 RX8's owner's manual does state to not use synthetic oil ). And there have been a few cases of S1's denied warranty engine replacement by dealers because of documented synthetic oil use. Some of those reported denials were eventually overturned by appeal to MNAO.
(BTW, my 2008 RX8's owner's manual does state to not use synthetic oil ). And there have been a few cases of S1's denied warranty engine replacement by dealers because of documented synthetic oil use. Some of those reported denials were eventually overturned by appeal to MNAO.
Edit: This is the one I am talking about. Jump to around 4:50 mark.
Last edited by UnknownJinX; 12-03-2017 at 08:39 PM. Reason: Added video
#2130
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1. Longer OCIs
2. Better performance at very high temps
3. Better pumpability at low temps
You addressed #1 and I agree. A synthetic will generally withstand contamination better than a conventional, but we shouldn't be re-injecting those contaminants into the combustion chamber anyway. The other reasons to change oil -- additive depletion, base oil degradation, etc. -- are equally well served by a shorter OCI.
#2 is only an issue if there are any lubricated parts in the engine that get that hot. A turbocharger is one example. Certain piston engines apparently also have really hot ring packs. In these kinds of situations, you might benefit from a synthetic no matter how short your OCIs are. It's unclear whether anything in a stock NA Renesis is in this category, but I suspect not.
#3 sort of helps indirectly. If you look at a 5W-xx conventional and a 5W-xx synthetic, both will be comparably pumpable at low temps. But the synthetic will generally have made fewer compromises (volatility, shear stability, etc.) to get there.
Really? You're missing out.
Last edited by IamFodi; 12-04-2017 at 06:38 PM.
#2132
Smoking turbo yay
There are three main benefits:
1. Longer OCIs
2. Better performance at very high temps
3. Better pumpability at low temps
You addressed #1 and I agree. A synthetic will generally withstand contamination better than a conventional, but we shouldn't be re-injecting those contaminants into the combustion chamber anyway.
#2 is only an issue if there are any lubricated parts in the engine that get that hot. A turbocharger is one example. Certain piston engines apparently also have really hot ring packs. In these kinds of situations, you might benefit from a synthetic no matter how short your OCIs are. It's unclear whether anything in a stock NA Renesis is in this category, but I suspect not.
#3 sort of helps indirectly. If you look at a 5W-xx conventional and a 5W-xx synthetic, both will be comparably pumpable at low temps. But the synthetic will generally have made fewer compromises (volatility, shear stability, etc.) to get there.Thats just a way to describe the purity and uniformity of a synthetic basestock. It's meaningful chemically, and it sounds cool, but it's not worth dwelling on as a layperson AFAIK.Really? You're missing out.
1. Longer OCIs
2. Better performance at very high temps
3. Better pumpability at low temps
You addressed #1 and I agree. A synthetic will generally withstand contamination better than a conventional, but we shouldn't be re-injecting those contaminants into the combustion chamber anyway.
#2 is only an issue if there are any lubricated parts in the engine that get that hot. A turbocharger is one example. Certain piston engines apparently also have really hot ring packs. In these kinds of situations, you might benefit from a synthetic no matter how short your OCIs are. It's unclear whether anything in a stock NA Renesis is in this category, but I suspect not.
#3 sort of helps indirectly. If you look at a 5W-xx conventional and a 5W-xx synthetic, both will be comparably pumpable at low temps. But the synthetic will generally have made fewer compromises (volatility, shear stability, etc.) to get there.Thats just a way to describe the purity and uniformity of a synthetic basestock. It's meaningful chemically, and it sounds cool, but it's not worth dwelling on as a layperson AFAIK.Really? You're missing out.
I will bring it to AutoX events once I get it off winter tires. Whenever the ground's dry(like last night), I take some twisty roads around me and rev its heart out.
#2133
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For instance, O'Reilly at one point was selling Valvoline Synpower in their own bottles for ~$18 for 5 quarts an a filter. This was back in 2010 but I doubt the practice has changed much.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...base-oil-quali
#2134
Metatron
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Just for info, Shell makes some pretty good oils in it's Rotella range, and also makes all Quaker State and Pennzoil lubes.
When they bought Pennzoil, they also got 'Slick50' and the entire JiffyLube chain, but I'm sure we can cut them some slack.
The Pennzoil Ultra Platinum synth has some excellent 'test results'....if you know what I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink.
(ILSAC GF–5, Sequence IIIG piston deposit test using Ferrari specifications.)
When they bought Pennzoil, they also got 'Slick50' and the entire JiffyLube chain, but I'm sure we can cut them some slack.
The Pennzoil Ultra Platinum synth has some excellent 'test results'....if you know what I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink.
(ILSAC GF–5, Sequence IIIG piston deposit test using Ferrari specifications.)
#2135
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The main thing I like about SOPUS brands (Shell, Pennzoil, etc.) is that most of their "synthetic" stuff is largely or entirely GTL. It's slowly trickling out to other manufacturers, but few other products use it yet.
Of course, that's just the base stock, which isn't nearly so informative as the spec. But AFAIK, a GTL-based oil is a little more likely to run cleaner than a regular Group III-based oil, all else equal.
Of course, that's just the base stock, which isn't nearly so informative as the spec. But AFAIK, a GTL-based oil is a little more likely to run cleaner than a regular Group III-based oil, all else equal.
Last edited by IamFodi; 12-05-2017 at 05:46 AM.
#2136
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I don't know about the latest version of Shell's Rotella but in the past it had significantly more ZDDP (Zinc dithiophosphate) than gasoline motor oils. It's a really good anti-wear additive.
However, this can be an especially large problem for rotaries that still inject crank case oil because ZDDP contains three significant catalyst poisons (zinc, sulfur and phosphorous). Avoid using anything with significant quantities of ZDDP if you are still injecting crank case oil.
However, this can be an especially large problem for rotaries that still inject crank case oil because ZDDP contains three significant catalyst poisons (zinc, sulfur and phosphorous). Avoid using anything with significant quantities of ZDDP if you are still injecting crank case oil.
#2137
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Agree re. anti-wear and cat poisoning.
I wouldn't have used the phrase "significant quantities" there, because the amount of ZDDP even in a GF-5 xW-20 is plenty significant. But I assume you meant "large quantities", e.g. well over the 800 ppm phosphorus limit for API SN/ILSAC GF-5. If so, I completely agree.
Doubly so because more modern forms of ZDDP do a better job of staying in the oil. That means a given amount in a more modern oil is worth more than the same amount in an older oil.
More recent versions of Rotella may not have the high ZDDP counts that older versions had, but they meet tougher specs, so actual performance should be equal-or-better. Same goes for just about any oil, really.
I wouldn't have used the phrase "significant quantities" there, because the amount of ZDDP even in a GF-5 xW-20 is plenty significant. But I assume you meant "large quantities", e.g. well over the 800 ppm phosphorus limit for API SN/ILSAC GF-5. If so, I completely agree.
Doubly so because more modern forms of ZDDP do a better job of staying in the oil. That means a given amount in a more modern oil is worth more than the same amount in an older oil.
More recent versions of Rotella may not have the high ZDDP counts that older versions had, but they meet tougher specs, so actual performance should be equal-or-better. Same goes for just about any oil, really.
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#2138
///// Upscale Zoom-Zoom
How about the Shell Rotella Diesel 15w40 non-synthetic - does it have too high ZDDP levels? I use this in all my motorcycles (that call for 10w40).
#2139
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If so: Shell Rotella T4 Triple Protection SAE 15W-40 API CK-4
Looks like significantly more than the 800 PPM limit, for what that's worth. Whether that's "too high" is impossible to say. I personally would want less, but that's a gut feeling. It's not obscenely high though.
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gwilliams6 (12-07-2017)
#2143
you want to run the thinnest oil possible at start up and want to run a thick enough oil to maintain pressure at the most extreme temps and rpms.
I have a sohn, and run 0w-30 synthetic. The high temp thickness between 20-30-40 isn't that much, where it really counts are cold start ups where the thickness of the oils are vastly different between a 0 and a 5 or worse a 20.
I have a sohn, and run 0w-30 synthetic. The high temp thickness between 20-30-40 isn't that much, where it really counts are cold start ups where the thickness of the oils are vastly different between a 0 and a 5 or worse a 20.
#2144
Metatron
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If you like thin oils, 2018 will be a 'good' year.....
You will meet the new CK-4 oils, with enhanced shear stability and higher resistance to oxidation and aeration.
And the new FA-4 oils, formulated for newly redesigned engines, calling for a much thinner oil.
Already on-road testing at Cummins and Cat, and all the major truck companys.
You will meet the new CK-4 oils, with enhanced shear stability and higher resistance to oxidation and aeration.
And the new FA-4 oils, formulated for newly redesigned engines, calling for a much thinner oil.
Already on-road testing at Cummins and Cat, and all the major truck companys.
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