Challengine conventional wisdom
05-05-2008, 05:14 PM
#1
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Challengine conventional wisdom
I came across an interesting response to the question "how much oil is burned in the engine" in the FAQ area on Atkins Rotary's website. Of course the question was concerned with the oil injection system and the resultant oil consumption.
The response was "very little oil is burned, most of it is scraped off and returned to the oil pan".
Keeping that in mind, an noting that oil consumption increases significantly with more agressive driving, it's seemingly clear that the answer provided applies to engines being driven non-agressively. We all know that oil consumption does in fact increase signficantly when our cars are driven agressively.
Combining this with the fact that I've noted significant increased soot in the tailpipe after having driven agressively for a tank or so, it appears that higher rates of fuel consumption, and apparently richer A/F mixtures, perhaps combined with more engine oil being burned in the injection process produces more carbon soot in the exhaust system.
Having said all that, one might conclude that the means, often cited here to keep ones engine from becoming the victim of heavy carbon deposits and lock is exactly opposite of what should be done to prevent such...and that is, redlining the thing daily.
Additionally, since the response from Atkins that very little oil is consumed, it would then be true that driving in non-agressive fashion using a Sohn oil adapter to inject 2 cycle oil into your engine will result in 2 cycle being delivered to your oil pan (noting of course that the oil is more volatile than motor oil and may in fact burn).
What say you on these challenges to conventional wisdom?
The response was "very little oil is burned, most of it is scraped off and returned to the oil pan".
Keeping that in mind, an noting that oil consumption increases significantly with more agressive driving, it's seemingly clear that the answer provided applies to engines being driven non-agressively. We all know that oil consumption does in fact increase signficantly when our cars are driven agressively.
Combining this with the fact that I've noted significant increased soot in the tailpipe after having driven agressively for a tank or so, it appears that higher rates of fuel consumption, and apparently richer A/F mixtures, perhaps combined with more engine oil being burned in the injection process produces more carbon soot in the exhaust system.
Having said all that, one might conclude that the means, often cited here to keep ones engine from becoming the victim of heavy carbon deposits and lock is exactly opposite of what should be done to prevent such...and that is, redlining the thing daily.
Additionally, since the response from Atkins that very little oil is consumed, it would then be true that driving in non-agressive fashion using a Sohn oil adapter to inject 2 cycle oil into your engine will result in 2 cycle being delivered to your oil pan (noting of course that the oil is more volatile than motor oil and may in fact burn).
What say you on these challenges to conventional wisdom?
05-05-2008, 07:24 PM
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05-05-2008, 07:32 PM
#5
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I had the same question. The assumption on the part about oil consumption is that Atkins knows the design well enough to answer such a question correctly.
05-05-2008, 08:58 PM
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I came across an interesting response to the question "how much oil is burned in the engine" in the FAQ area on Atkins Rotary's website. Of course the question was concerned with the oil injection system and the resultant oil consumption.
The response was "very little oil is burned, most of it is scraped off and returned to the oil pan".
Keeping that in mind, an noting that oil consumption increases significantly with more agressive driving, it's seemingly clear that the answer provided applies to engines being driven non-agressively. We all know that oil consumption does in fact increase signficantly when our cars are driven agressively.
Combining this with the fact that I've noted significant increased soot in the tailpipe after having driven agressively for a tank or so, it appears that higher rates of fuel consumption, and apparently richer A/F mixtures, perhaps combined with more engine oil being burned in the injection process produces more carbon soot in the exhaust system.
Having said all that, one might conclude that the means, often cited here to keep ones engine from becoming the victim of heavy carbon deposits and lock is exactly opposite of what should be done to prevent such...and that is, redlining the thing daily.
Additionally, since the response from Atkins that very little oil is consumed, it would then be true that driving in non-agressive fashion using a Sohn oil adapter to inject 2 cycle oil into your engine will result in 2 cycle being delivered to your oil pan (noting of course that the oil is more volatile than motor oil and may in fact burn).
What say you on these challenges to conventional wisdom?
The response was "very little oil is burned, most of it is scraped off and returned to the oil pan".
Keeping that in mind, an noting that oil consumption increases significantly with more agressive driving, it's seemingly clear that the answer provided applies to engines being driven non-agressively. We all know that oil consumption does in fact increase signficantly when our cars are driven agressively.
Combining this with the fact that I've noted significant increased soot in the tailpipe after having driven agressively for a tank or so, it appears that higher rates of fuel consumption, and apparently richer A/F mixtures, perhaps combined with more engine oil being burned in the injection process produces more carbon soot in the exhaust system.
Having said all that, one might conclude that the means, often cited here to keep ones engine from becoming the victim of heavy carbon deposits and lock is exactly opposite of what should be done to prevent such...and that is, redlining the thing daily.
Additionally, since the response from Atkins that very little oil is consumed, it would then be true that driving in non-agressive fashion using a Sohn oil adapter to inject 2 cycle oil into your engine will result in 2 cycle being delivered to your oil pan (noting of course that the oil is more volatile than motor oil and may in fact burn).
What say you on these challenges to conventional wisdom?
Moral of the story, Rev your engine or get a Driving Miss Daisy bumper sticker
05-05-2008, 10:37 PM
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Oh and if you're wondering about the other oil, here's a pretty illustration. Learning is good
Last edited by BMonkey; 05-05-2008 at 10:39 PM.
05-05-2008, 11:33 PM
#10
^yeah, that is what I thought, I was kinda being sarcastic. Once it is sprayed into the chamber it is gone.
Thanks for the link though, that is a good vid.
Thanks for the link though, that is a good vid.
Last edited by fahrfegneugen; 05-05-2008 at 11:36 PM.
05-05-2008, 11:44 PM
#11
During "spirited" driving my exhaust turns a very light brown.
As far as oil getting back to the oil pan after OMP injection,,, balderdash. It has no way to do it. If there was too much oil being injected (which at this point in time I find highly unlikely) it would just be pushed out the exhaust (port) system. And thus burned by the catalytic converter.
As far as oil getting back to the oil pan after OMP injection,,, balderdash. It has no way to do it. If there was too much oil being injected (which at this point in time I find highly unlikely) it would just be pushed out the exhaust (port) system. And thus burned by the catalytic converter.
05-06-2008, 12:50 AM
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"68. Does the oil in the combustion chamber burn?
Hardly any of the oil in the combustion chamber burns, it is scraped off of the cast irons by the oil rings and returned to the oil pan. "
Above is quoted from FAQ #68 on the Atkins rotary website.
Someone needs to tell Mr. Atkins they're wrong about the oil burning...argue that one with him.
"During "spirited" driving my exhaust turns a very light brown."
I've yet to see this. Nearly all tailpipes I've seen on these cars are blackened with soot to varying degrees. Interesting. Why is it that your car is different than others?
Using one of the theories proposed in this thread, you're building up carbon in your engine since it's not being seen in the exhaust pipe...as this statement might indicate
"But if the carbon produced during the high throttle/high rpm is exponentially (or should I say, disproportionately) more than the low throttle/low rpm, then that means that the carbon produced is not being carried out of the exhaust as in the high throttle/high rpm situation."
Unless of course, your exhaust pipes turn black when you're driving Miss Daisy.
Hardly any of the oil in the combustion chamber burns, it is scraped off of the cast irons by the oil rings and returned to the oil pan. "
Above is quoted from FAQ #68 on the Atkins rotary website.
Someone needs to tell Mr. Atkins they're wrong about the oil burning...argue that one with him.
"During "spirited" driving my exhaust turns a very light brown."
I've yet to see this. Nearly all tailpipes I've seen on these cars are blackened with soot to varying degrees. Interesting. Why is it that your car is different than others?
Using one of the theories proposed in this thread, you're building up carbon in your engine since it's not being seen in the exhaust pipe...as this statement might indicate
"But if the carbon produced during the high throttle/high rpm is exponentially (or should I say, disproportionately) more than the low throttle/low rpm, then that means that the carbon produced is not being carried out of the exhaust as in the high throttle/high rpm situation."
Unless of course, your exhaust pipes turn black when you're driving Miss Daisy.
05-06-2008, 01:15 AM
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"68. Does the oil in the combustion chamber burn?
Hardly any of the oil in the combustion chamber burns, it is scraped off of the cast irons by the oil rings and returned to the oil pan. "
Above is quoted from FAQ #68 on the Atkins rotary website.
Someone needs to tell Mr. Atkins they're wrong about the oil burning...argue that one with him.
Using one of the theories proposed in this thread, you're building up carbon in your engine since it's not being seen in the exhaust pipe...as this statement might indicate
"But if the carbon produced during the high throttle/high rpm is exponentially (or should I say, disproportionately) more than the low throttle/low rpm, then that means that the carbon produced is not being carried out of the exhaust as in the high throttle/high rpm situation."
Unless of course, your exhaust pipes turn black when you're driving Miss Daisy.
Hardly any of the oil in the combustion chamber burns, it is scraped off of the cast irons by the oil rings and returned to the oil pan. "
Above is quoted from FAQ #68 on the Atkins rotary website.
Someone needs to tell Mr. Atkins they're wrong about the oil burning...argue that one with him.
Using one of the theories proposed in this thread, you're building up carbon in your engine since it's not being seen in the exhaust pipe...as this statement might indicate
"But if the carbon produced during the high throttle/high rpm is exponentially (or should I say, disproportionately) more than the low throttle/low rpm, then that means that the carbon produced is not being carried out of the exhaust as in the high throttle/high rpm situation."
Unless of course, your exhaust pipes turn black when you're driving Miss Daisy.
Anyways, the oil rings on the sides of the rotors are to keep the oil in. They keep the pressurized oil in the rotors from coming out into the combustion chamber. They also have to be tight enough to keep the oil from leaking out when the car is stopped. Like I said before, the oil would become contaminated with fuel if it was returned into the oiling system. Watch this vid, it illustrates what the oil rings are doing. Same thing is stated in a little book called "Rotary Engine" by Kenichi Yamamoto. Atkins is wrong, sorry dude.
Last edited by BMonkey; 05-06-2008 at 01:18 AM.
05-06-2008, 01:39 AM
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Well, all tailpipes blacken... but if its doing it more than normal, perhaps you should try pre-mixing
Anyways, the oil rings on the sides of the rotors are to keep the oil in. They keep the pressurized oil in the rotors from coming out into the combustion chamber. They also have to be tight enough to keep the oil from leaking out when the car is stopped. Like I said before, the oil would become contaminated with fuel if it was returned into the oiling system. Watch this vid, it illustrates what the oil rings are doing. Same thing is stated in a little book called "Rotary Engine" by Kenichi Yamamoto. Atkins is wrong, sorry dude.
Anyways, the oil rings on the sides of the rotors are to keep the oil in. They keep the pressurized oil in the rotors from coming out into the combustion chamber. They also have to be tight enough to keep the oil from leaking out when the car is stopped. Like I said before, the oil would become contaminated with fuel if it was returned into the oiling system. Watch this vid, it illustrates what the oil rings are doing. Same thing is stated in a little book called "Rotary Engine" by Kenichi Yamamoto. Atkins is wrong, sorry dude.
I don't know where the oil is actually sprayed, although your video indicates its in the induction system. I'm assuming that is correct.
I'd think it would be difficult to escape being burned if true.However, that neglects when it's injected relative to the detonation of the fuel charge.
It'd be difficult for any oil to actually lubricate after being burned, so I'm guessing timing is involved, in relation to the actual fuel burning. That being the oil is injected priot to combustion, not during.
I've downloaded the book you mention (thanks), but haven't had a chance to read it yet.
No need to be sorry. If Atkins is wrong, tell him that.
Last edited by digitalSniperX1; 05-06-2008 at 01:47 AM.
05-06-2008, 01:50 AM
#15
Man, We Ain't Found Sh*t!
Oh and if you're wondering about the other oil, here's a pretty illustration. Learning is good
05-06-2008, 09:25 AM
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Edit: I thought about it a little more and it's either blowby or... The film from the injected oil that forms on the side housing wall could be thin enough to allow the oil rings (which are already riding on a film of oil) to pass over the oil and pull it into the pressurized oil path, contaminating the oil. Oil is already being shot at the corners anyways by the injection system... More guesswork... Where's rotarygod when you need his sage advice (pictures rotarygod with walking stick and long white beard divulging the meaning of life in relation to rotary engines)
Last edited by BMonkey; 05-06-2008 at 09:50 AM.
05-06-2008, 09:56 AM
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I can see blowby being the cause in a piston engine, not so sure about these rotaries.
Regardless of all that, Atkins is undoubtedly an expert with these engines, doesn't mean he can't be wrong, but it does mean I'd be less likely to doubt an answer to such a simple question.
05-06-2008, 10:51 AM
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This indicates a path does exist from the combustion chamber to the oil pan.
05-06-2008, 10:59 AM
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These are complex issues and you're not thinking like an engineer...
05-06-2008, 11:03 AM
#22
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A path definitely exists - I use a rich pre-mix all the time, and change oil at 4k intervals, and over that period the level will drop about 1 quart/litre.
My assumtion (since we're playing that game) is that some of the pre-mix oil that gets on the side irons is scraped down into the sump oil, a not-unreasonable conclusion, given that 4 or 5 litres of pre-mix oil have passed thru the system in that time.
S
My assumtion (since we're playing that game) is that some of the pre-mix oil that gets on the side irons is scraped down into the sump oil, a not-unreasonable conclusion, given that 4 or 5 litres of pre-mix oil have passed thru the system in that time.
S
05-06-2008, 11:36 AM
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A path definitely exists - I use a rich pre-mix all the time, and change oil at 4k intervals, and over that period the level will drop about 1 quart/litre.
My assumtion (since we're playing that game) is that some of the pre-mix oil that gets on the side irons is scraped down into the sump oil, a not-unreasonable conclusion, given that 4 or 5 litres of pre-mix oil have passed thru the system in that time.
S
My assumtion (since we're playing that game) is that some of the pre-mix oil that gets on the side irons is scraped down into the sump oil, a not-unreasonable conclusion, given that 4 or 5 litres of pre-mix oil have passed thru the system in that time.
S
