Ren-gen

As some Canadians know...are gas is crap. Our Canadian government has a agreement with Axxon (since 1996) to use their MMT gas (unleaded suppliment) which has been known to cause severe carbon build up. Our new Corolla owners manual even warns against this type of gas. After finding out that all Canadian gas except Sunoco ultra 94 has this suppliment, I called Toyota. I still haven't had any response from them concerning this issue.

I'm just wondering if this same warning is specified in the US or Canadian RX-8 manuals. I think the Candian RX-8 specifies the use of premium gas anyways...right?

P.s.- This is the same government that spends billions on Carb. certification, and yet still buys crap that causes our cars to fail in the first place...

SA22C

WTF? I've never heard that before. I was under the impression that energy laws were a provincial concern, and that the feds coudn't mandate such things. Case in point, Saskatchewan is going to make all the retailers in the province add ethanol to their gasoline to 'help' jump-start the ethanol industry in the province.

wakeech

they are... but this is a guy who's spelt "our" as "are" and "Exxon" as "Axxon"...

anyhoo, our gas is crap because of the very high sulpherous chemical content, not some additive (one that i've never heard off, too)...

Doctorr

You will have to trust me on this one.......
-----MMT gasoline( that is straight run gas containing the additive Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl [CH3C5H4Mn(CO)3] has been out of Shell's gas since about '98.
Shell blends expensive 'platformer' gas to bring its 'octane' up to spec. A platformer bashes the gas with hydrogen, destroying sulfur, and producing a gasoline that has a very high 'octane' rating. (102+) But they can blend this off into their regular gasoline, (91 at the pumps).
All SHELL gas (west of Quebec) has no MMT. The further west you go, the better the gas gets. Shell regularly ships gas & diesel into the highly regulated California market, from its Vancouver terminal, due to it's exceptionally low sulfur content.
Sarnia shell refinery has won government awards for sulfur reduction.
Please don't list us all under the same crappy heading. Some of the smaller suppliers in 'Saskabush' are still using MMT, even as they buy the subsidised Ethanol to claim they are 'GREEN'.
-----Yes, MMT is as bad as you have heard, and it was doomed as soon as the Northern U.S. states banned it. It plugs catalytic converters, and fouls O2 sensors.
-----If you want world-class quality gas, buy a big name brand, in the grade you require, and you will be O.K.
------(er, so I'm told! )
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Doc

mac

http://www.greenfuels.org/ethaalt.html

A similar product is Methyl Tertiary- Butyl Ether (MTBE), a gas additive that is often added in by companies such as Pretro Can (so much for buying big brand name) throughout Ontario, Quebec and western provinces including BC. Hey Doctorr, is this what Shell is using as it's "platformer gas"? Opponents also contend that it contaminates ground water (just like MMT) and questions whether it actually reduces emissions (just like MMT). There is currently a significant backlash against MTBE in the US which is banning the product. Contrary to MMT, MTBE is mostly manufactured in Canada. As usual, a Canadian corporation (Methanex) is using the same NAFTA ruling used above to overturn the ban in the state of California but the State is claiming "state sovereignty and democratic governance"... can anyone guess how the verdict will read?
http://www.corpwatch.org/issues/PID.jsp?articleid=648

The problem that I see is that gas distributors do not have to list what "enhancers" are used at the pump and thus we can't make a choice. Even if theyd did, then we would have to decide who to believe in regards to performance and safety. BTW if they ever do start listing the content of gas, you would be in for a treat, and you thought reading packaging info on your favorite junk food was an exercise in "how many letters can we put in a word" this will take it to a whole new level

Here in Ontario, there were some news reports that Toyota was refusing to validate warranty claims because they blamed the damage to the engines was due to the additives. Reality is that Toyota only recommends against using MMT et al http://www.parl.gc.ca/english/senate...-e/c29-a-e.htm

On a similar note, I've recently heard on the radio some news report about gasoline that contains a high content of ethanol (20%, normal is 10%) and is causing engine damage and that some car companies are voiding warranties. Again, I have yet to see any supporting documentation (ie who is voiding the warranty, which car etc). Probably another urban legend (gota to love 'em) since gas cut with ethanol is MORE expensive then ordinary gas, the odds of dodgy gas merchants using ethanol to dilute the gas is a little hard to swallow.

The feds tried to mandate lower levels of sulphur in our gas for Kyoto, but Alberta had something to say about that and nixed that idea in the bud "toot suite" It would cost too much they say.

Doctorr

How can you compare an ether (MTBE) with a heavy metal octane booster?(MMT)
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------Yes, PCan still uses MTBE. And it is probably going to continue to do so.
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Many states passed laws that fuel must be 'oxygenated' to be sold there, and some companies used Methanol, some Ethanol, (from grain) some chose to use Methyl Tert-butyl Ether (made from butane). It is up to them which they chose to go with, the laws don't specify how it is done.Ethanol is a fairly low tech answer to the problem, and a very expensive one. Look up the experience that Brazil went thru, they had a lot of sugar-cane that could be fermented into ethanol, so they passed a law....that is some of the worlds most expensive gas now. Saskatchewan CAN force the oil companies to buy their ethanol, but I am glad I am not a Sask. taxpayer who will be subsidizing the scheme, it is like turkeys voting for christmas, there is no better way to waste public money.
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So, if you have some objection to which additive is used, let me just assure you that platformate is not ether, but that either is O.K. as an octane booster for any engine.
Platformate is the term given to gas that has been thru a 'Platinum Catalyst Reformer' at the refinery. This takes 'straight run' gasoline, like your Model T used, and makes it into 100+ octane fuel. (Don't worry, you are never going to see any outside the refinery, it is way too expensive to make, to sell at that level!)
It is used to bring up the 'octane' level of the pump gas. Obviously this is as expensive as it sounds, the 'machine' that transforms the pokey paraffins into high octane aromatics uses pellets made with platinum alloys, just like a catalytic converter on your car. It is so costly that the oil companies only 'lease' the catalyst, and only have to actually pay for what is not returned to the leasing company.....think about that - they WISH it was gold plated - it would be way cheaper!
So, O.K. any big name gasoline except P'can, and I can't vouch for Esso either......are you getting my point?
California spec fuel, at canadian prices, with neither of the additives that some people have a problem with....
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mac

MTBE is being compared to MMT 'cause they are both used as a fuel additive to bost octane and reduce emmissions. Both have been demonstrated to contaminate the ground water at a toxic level (both EPA and EC). Yes MMT is a heavy metal but apparently MTBE is highly soluble (I could have sworn that ether was not soluble in water, oh well, so much for my memory of all those classes in organic + inorganic chemistry). As I mentioned in my last post, news reports were saying that they were a problem for engines but that was never substantiated scientifically, hence my posting to the thread. My objection with these products is their effectiveness as an octane booster when taking into account their capacity to contaminate ground water. Again even if the fuel additives were listed at the pump, I am not in a position to know which is good/bad, dangerous or safe.

I now get the gist of "Platformate". RE cost of platinum catalysts...back in my university days, I used to use platinum electrodes for several of my experiments and the lab techs used to freak whenever I had to take them out. Current pricing for platinum is $640 USD an ounce

So Shell has no additives? BTW I use Shell when I can (car nut friend told me that Shell gas was better because less additives, cleaner etc.) but the problem is that there are so few Shell stations in Ottawa (the closest is about 6 km from where I'm at

Is it safe to assume that you work for Shell?

Doctorr

If a community has MTBE (or any other gas additive) in their water supply, then the problem is not really the additive, is it?
The problem is the leaking underground gas tanks.........
Finding the additive is just a symptom of the much larger problem.

wakeech

ROFL!!! :D

unbelievable discussion guys!! AWESOME stuff!!
encore encore!!

SA22C

Testify! (waves hands in appriciation) It seems like the government here still hasn't learned that government intervention typically fouls things up, despite several failures.

wakeech

...well, i'll agree that the wrong kinds of intervention will screw things up, but that usually happens only when they don't fully understand the situation (which is most of the time... and when they do understand it, they've taken too long to understand it and act too late )

if the planets align, though, and government gets all their legislative "sums" right, i'm totally for intervention. (<--- a centrist)

Ren-gen

Wakeech: Sorry for the incorrect spelling of "Exxon" and use of "are" and "our". I didn't know my spelling and grammer would be criticized so much. In the future you should not reply to a POST if you know nothing about the subject (MMT in this case) and just wish to mark grammer and spelling. As for everyone else- thanks for the great info!!

wakeech

your credibility in such an environment as this, where the written word is WHO YOU ARE to everyone else, is reflected in one's use of the language. given that your use was "relaxed", some of your information wasn't quite right (energy regulation is still up to the provinces, until Kyoto gets well underway), and you were ranting about a subject (which has been rectified) which was an issue well before i got into the automotive world (and was, as you point out, ignorant to it) the validity of your post came into suspicion under my eyes. i'm not here to overly critisize and make enemies, so, sorry.

but on that note, it appears that MMT isn't an issue throughout most of Canada, and would cause a wankel engine the same problems it does to cylindrical engines.

mac

Yes, it is a symptom, and leaking fuel tanks are the bigger problem. But the question then becomes can we stop all underground storage tanks from leaking? One side of the debate will say, it's too expensive to make a leak proof container so let's minimize the damage. It's cheaper to just clean up the mess after it is discovered (hopefully after we are long gone). Then if the additives are not in the gas, the cost of cleanup would be less with less damgage to the environment. The cars would get a little less power and possibly pollute a little more but does it justify the cost of having the contaminants in the water supply (because eventually there will be a spill).

On the other hand, if we made all the containers spill proof (it would probably cost a lot more for each container instead of just the ones that leak) but then the additives would not be a problem and there would be no need to do any cleanup (even if the gas did not contain any additive, it can still contaminate the water table).

I know I would much prefer the second option, but let's face it, big corporations are very heavily influenced by the bottom line. It all comes down to the bean counters who advises the big companies that after crunching the numbers , that it's more economical to defer the problem until tomorrow, and only fix the problems as they come up. Let the next generation deal with the consequences (plenty of examples to chose from).