Brake job gone wrong. Massive fail.
08-05-2010, 04:23 PM
#27
Sounds like there is air trapped in the ABS unit. Some of the older ABS units had bleed valves right on them. In some modern vehicles air gets trapped in the ABS unit and the only way to properly bleed it is to have the dealership command the ABS unit to activate each internal solenoid in sequence using a specialized computer (tech2 for GM vehicles, etc.), and then re-bleed each wheel circuit once that trapped air has been forced out and into the lines.
There is no accurate way to bleed the ABS units otherwise. Some people theorize that going to a gravel lot and activating the ABS several times can help, but you can not be sure that all wheel circuits and solenoids have been triggered, so you cannot be sure all air is out. Also, even if you did manage to activate the necessary ABS circuits, what is to say that the air bubble will move out through the line and into the caliper, and not simply return right back into the ABS unit?
This only happens when a caliper is disconnected and a large volume of fluid exits (thus air enters) one or more brake lines, or if the brake master cylinder reservoir goes empty for some reason.
There is no accurate way to bleed the ABS units otherwise. Some people theorize that going to a gravel lot and activating the ABS several times can help, but you can not be sure that all wheel circuits and solenoids have been triggered, so you cannot be sure all air is out. Also, even if you did manage to activate the necessary ABS circuits, what is to say that the air bubble will move out through the line and into the caliper, and not simply return right back into the ABS unit?
This only happens when a caliper is disconnected and a large volume of fluid exits (thus air enters) one or more brake lines, or if the brake master cylinder reservoir goes empty for some reason.
08-06-2010, 12:05 AM
#31
kevin@rotaryresurrection
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: east of Knoxville, TN
Posts: 1,415
Likes: 0
Received 57 Likes
on
35 Posts
My advice is to get a "one man bleeder" bottle from the auto part store. You can get them for about 4 bucks. You put the hose right onto the bleed valve, and you dont have to worry about the cup or bottle spilling, or the hose coming out of it, the bottle is magnetic and can be placed on the chassis so it won't tip over or move. You simply install the bleed bottle, pump the pedal several times with the valve open, close the valve, then move to the next wheel.
08-06-2010, 06:10 AM
#33
Super Moderator
I am so called Old School and agree with Brettus...
1. Bleeder CLOSED, Pump it Up ...Slowly Pump Brake Pedal about 3-5 times (like you are having sex)..not STOMPING.
2. HOLD pedal Down firmly,
3. Other Guy at Caliper then OPENs Bleeder, lets fluid out, your foot and pedal goes to the floor..leave it there.
4. Other Guy Turns Bleeder Off or tightens.
Repeat the procedure Until No Air Bubbles and Fluid has changed color or looks cleaner.
OR, get Speed Bleeders...no Second person needed and no chance of Air getting in.
I did my car (complete flush a year ago, with speed bleeders on all calipers) and forgot about the Master-cylinder Reservoir divider, so I got air ALL through REAR Wheels and Rear MC Tank Section was empty of B Fluid and Sucking AIR!!.,,,
YES, you have to Bleed a lot of New Fluid through to get rid of ALL Air, including ABS, I used 1 and half Bottles on the Rears alone.
and YES, you must have a Clear plastic Tube from Bleeder into a catch Jar or Tin.
How did you get on with the LH Caliper I looked up for you NEW??
1. Bleeder CLOSED, Pump it Up ...Slowly Pump Brake Pedal about 3-5 times (like you are having sex)..not STOMPING.
2. HOLD pedal Down firmly,
3. Other Guy at Caliper then OPENs Bleeder, lets fluid out, your foot and pedal goes to the floor..leave it there.
4. Other Guy Turns Bleeder Off or tightens.
Repeat the procedure Until No Air Bubbles and Fluid has changed color or looks cleaner.
OR, get Speed Bleeders...no Second person needed and no chance of Air getting in.
I did my car (complete flush a year ago, with speed bleeders on all calipers) and forgot about the Master-cylinder Reservoir divider, so I got air ALL through REAR Wheels and Rear MC Tank Section was empty of B Fluid and Sucking AIR!!.,,,
YES, you have to Bleed a lot of New Fluid through to get rid of ALL Air, including ABS, I used 1 and half Bottles on the Rears alone.
and YES, you must have a Clear plastic Tube from Bleeder into a catch Jar or Tin.
How did you get on with the LH Caliper I looked up for you NEW??
Last edited by ASH8; 08-06-2010 at 06:25 AM.
08-06-2010, 06:19 AM
#34
Super Moderator
Just some advice....not trying to be funny, but AFTER you have been through an experience like this and with new brake pads your mind can sometimes "play" on you.....like you think something is not quite correct, or your brake pedal does not "feel" the same as before...In most cases you have done it correctly and can be your head playing tricks with you....do you get my drift???..
In other words, give it some time/mileage..and I am not in favor of thinking Pads can be "bedded in" in a few miles and a few stops...again take it smooth and slowly if you can and you will get a better brake pad life, IMO it takes a few hundred miles to completely bed in pads.
08-06-2010, 06:32 AM
#35
Super Moderator
The old ways are the good ways.
I was taught by a high school shop teacher about 50 years ago. I initially wondered why it was important to start with some fluid in the jar, since I could see the fluid in the plastic hose. Then I realized that when he learned to bleed brakes there was no clear plastic hose. Nut on the end of the hose is a great idea.
I trained my wife, who is afraid of mechanical things, to be the pedal pumper. Gives a nice moment of teamwork. Otherwise when I work on the cars she hides inside the house and prays that nothing will blow up.
Ken
I was taught by a high school shop teacher about 50 years ago. I initially wondered why it was important to start with some fluid in the jar, since I could see the fluid in the plastic hose. Then I realized that when he learned to bleed brakes there was no clear plastic hose. Nut on the end of the hose is a great idea.
I trained my wife, who is afraid of mechanical things, to be the pedal pumper. Gives a nice moment of teamwork. Otherwise when I work on the cars she hides inside the house and prays that nothing will blow up.
Ken
08-06-2010, 03:11 PM
#36
I bled the brakes again today with the help of my mother 
.The local parts store sold out of the bleeder kit, so I used an aquarium clear hose with a cup attached to the end. Three pumps each, had her hold the pedal at third pump as I bled and closed. Did about 3 bleeds for all four including the MC. Pedal feels much stiffer with much less travel.
Went for a drive and everything felt great. At this moment, I cannot compare them to how they felt before the brake job (stiff with great feel and very little travel). It is close I would say. I reckon that it will be even better with another bleed and the faulty caliper replaced.
I did come upon two problems though. It still feels and sound like at least one of the calipers in the rear is sticking, I cannot point out which. Another problem is the properly working right rear caliper's piston and pad seating. There is a bump on the pad and it seems like it should seat inside one of the notches in the piston. I found out that the caliper's higher flat surface is pushing on that 3mm diameter bump instead of the whole pad. I couldn't turn the piston because I left the cube key at my friends place two hours away, and the local parts store is sold out.
One other thing. Perhaps it is not exactly a problem. My pads on the right seem to be squealing coming to low speed stops. ET500's aren't known to squeal. I didn't grease the pads when I did them and only used shims for the front pads.
Any suggestions for these little obstacles?
.The local parts store sold out of the bleeder kit, so I used an aquarium clear hose with a cup attached to the end. Three pumps each, had her hold the pedal at third pump as I bled and closed. Did about 3 bleeds for all four including the MC. Pedal feels much stiffer with much less travel.Went for a drive and everything felt great. At this moment, I cannot compare them to how they felt before the brake job (stiff with great feel and very little travel). It is close I would say. I reckon that it will be even better with another bleed and the faulty caliper replaced.
I did come upon two problems though. It still feels and sound like at least one of the calipers in the rear is sticking, I cannot point out which. Another problem is the properly working right rear caliper's piston and pad seating. There is a bump on the pad and it seems like it should seat inside one of the notches in the piston. I found out that the caliper's higher flat surface is pushing on that 3mm diameter bump instead of the whole pad. I couldn't turn the piston because I left the cube key at my friends place two hours away, and the local parts store is sold out.
One other thing. Perhaps it is not exactly a problem. My pads on the right seem to be squealing coming to low speed stops. ET500's aren't known to squeal. I didn't grease the pads when I did them and only used shims for the front pads.
Any suggestions for these little obstacles?
08-06-2010, 04:22 PM
#37
You have to line up the projections on the backer pad with the grooves in the piston.
I had the ET500s squeal, but it was minimal
As far as old ways being better, does this mean you still handwash your clothes with a tub and washboard?
.
I had the ET500s squeal, but it was minimal
As far as old ways being better, does this mean you still handwash your clothes with a tub and washboard?
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 08-06-2010 at 04:26 PM.
08-06-2010, 07:32 PM
#38
Registered
A good wife can be very handy. 38 years, and still going strong.
The cool thing is that her fear of certain mechanical things is not irrational. She's a nurse, and years ago she took care of a guy who was severely burned when something exploded under the hood of a car he was working on. Yet when I need her for an extra pair of hands - or, in this case, a foot - she'll come out and work with me.
Ken
The cool thing is that her fear of certain mechanical things is not irrational. She's a nurse, and years ago she took care of a guy who was severely burned when something exploded under the hood of a car he was working on. Yet when I need her for an extra pair of hands - or, in this case, a foot - she'll come out and work with me.
Ken
08-06-2010, 11:57 PM
#40
Registered
08-07-2010, 06:53 AM
#42
Surf Hard, Drive Hard
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indialantic, Florida
Posts: 7,840
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
9 Posts
Wave action and salt water will clean'em right up!
Last edited by Mazurfer; 08-07-2010 at 06:57 AM.
08-07-2010, 06:56 AM
#43
Surf Hard, Drive Hard
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Indialantic, Florida
Posts: 7,840
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
9 Posts
Last time I was out in the driveway having a friend help me out, we were going through the process and my neighbor(a lady) in the townhouse next door comes out and says "WTF are you guys doing?", "All I hear is in-out-in-out".
08-07-2010, 11:40 PM
#44
Everything is seated properly now. Waiting for the new used caliper to come in so I can replace the faulty one.
There is still loud squealing. It is unbearable and unavoidable. The passenger side would squeal coming to ALL stops and very loudly too. I placed the shim in the rear to see if it helps, and no luck. I still have the previous shims seated in the front. It's so bad that I heard a bunch of girls say "OMG LIKE OMG, THAT CAR NEEDS NEW BRAKES!" "OMG LIKE I WAS JUST LIKE ABOUT TO SAY THAT!". Horrible. Just emailed RacingBrake about the problem. I highly doubt ET500's squeal this much on the norm, or even 10% of what I'm getting now.
There is still loud squealing. It is unbearable and unavoidable. The passenger side would squeal coming to ALL stops and very loudly too. I placed the shim in the rear to see if it helps, and no luck. I still have the previous shims seated in the front. It's so bad that I heard a bunch of girls say "OMG LIKE OMG, THAT CAR NEEDS NEW BRAKES!" "OMG LIKE I WAS JUST LIKE ABOUT TO SAY THAT!". Horrible. Just emailed RacingBrake about the problem. I highly doubt ET500's squeal this much on the norm, or even 10% of what I'm getting now.
08-11-2010, 03:03 PM
#45
I have the squealing dealt with by removing the OE shims and adding grease.
I received my new used caliper and it is time to replace the faulty one. Anyone have tips for changing out the caliper and making sure I will get as little air as possible into the lines during the replacement?
I received my new used caliper and it is time to replace the faulty one. Anyone have tips for changing out the caliper and making sure I will get as little air as possible into the lines during the replacement?
08-11-2010, 03:41 PM
#46
Registered
Make sure the master cylinder reservoir is full. Plug the hose when you take it off the old caliper (if possible) or at least tie it to something high to minimize dripping. Have the right tool to retract the piston.
And, for God's sake, don't let the piston in the new caliper see your RX8Club ID.
Ken
And, for God's sake, don't let the piston in the new caliper see your RX8Club ID.
Ken
08-11-2010, 03:52 PM
#47
Crack the hydraulic line banjo bolt at the caliper and then close it lightly, only enough that it won't leak all over the place. Unbolt old caliper from the car, but leave it hooked up to the hydraulic line. Just hang it off to the side. Bolt in the replacement caliper. Now undo the hydraulic line on the old caliper and swap it over to the new one as quickly as possible. Bleed the caliper and line ASAP to minimize air working it's way in as the line leaks out into the caliper.
Most of the **** brake bleed procedures are just that. I've done it every way under the sun with equally positive results. I bleed my own with nothing more than a hose and catch container for the last 15+ years. No fancy equipment or assistance, no specific corner procedure, etc. The main thing is not to be stingy on the fluid. More often than not air in the system is the result of stopping the bleed process before it's completed. You're not done until you can get a solid pedal. The one exception would be an equipment failure. I recall someone on the forum going to bleed brakes and after numerous tries couldn't get a solid pedal. He eventually swapped out the MC with a new one and this supposedly fixed the problem. Seems unusual for the MC to fail just at that particular moment, but that was the claim being made.
Most of the **** brake bleed procedures are just that. I've done it every way under the sun with equally positive results. I bleed my own with nothing more than a hose and catch container for the last 15+ years. No fancy equipment or assistance, no specific corner procedure, etc. The main thing is not to be stingy on the fluid. More often than not air in the system is the result of stopping the bleed process before it's completed. You're not done until you can get a solid pedal. The one exception would be an equipment failure. I recall someone on the forum going to bleed brakes and after numerous tries couldn't get a solid pedal. He eventually swapped out the MC with a new one and this supposedly fixed the problem. Seems unusual for the MC to fail just at that particular moment, but that was the claim being made.
08-11-2010, 03:56 PM
#48
The bleeder valve on the new used caliper is chipped at the end. I was thinking of replacing it with the one from faulty caliper. Any ideas on how to do that without brake fluid gushing everywhere and air going deep into the lines?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
hufflepuff
Series I Wheels, Tires, Brakes & Suspension
6
05-30-2016 10:45 AM
