Turbo or Supercharger
04-30-2007, 11:21 PM
#51
Originally Posted by RX82
Has anyone installed a twin turbo on the 8?
Originally Posted by N rider89
no.
Originally Posted by RX82
I don't really understand the whole concept of twin turbo? I thought RX-7's had them.
05-01-2007, 12:06 AM
#54
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Fayettenam, NC
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So we can't ask questions on this forum. umm I fugured this is talking about turbos and SC so I whould ask a related question on here instead of creating another thread. My bad!
05-01-2007, 01:16 AM
#56
Yeah, its been explained here and a million other places in great detail and, unfortunately, even explaining it fairly succinctly my not give you a full grasp of the concept because there is a bit of nebulousness in the general understanding of what the torque and HP plots really mean in the real world.
Area under the curve for the torque plot is the most important bit of info, though.
Area under the curve for the torque plot is the most important bit of info, though.
05-01-2007, 01:23 AM
#57
THE GREAT WHITE
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is a turbo kit for the auto made by RE Amemiya which is essentially a modifed greddy turbo kit.
Here is the link.
http://www.re-amemiya.co.jp/rx_8/04_turbo_kit_rx_8.html
Here is the link.
http://www.re-amemiya.co.jp/rx_8/04_turbo_kit_rx_8.html
05-01-2007, 03:39 AM
#59
Well, there is a couple issues about the Re-amemiya kit.
1. Just about everything they produce is expensive. So having an expensive modified Greddy turbo kit, just flows with everything else they do. Part of that expensive, is you get it from the legendary Re-amemiya. Of course its up to you if you want to pay the price.
2. There may be a number of modifications to the Greddy kit to get it to work properly and last a decent amount of time.
To be fair to Re-amemiya, they have a well deserved good reputation and can't afford to damage it by putting on basic Greddy turbo kits that blow up after a couple of thousand miles. Therefore, they may have replaced a number of parts in the original setup to get it to work properly and last longer. This cost money, therefore the price might reflect this.
1. Just about everything they produce is expensive. So having an expensive modified Greddy turbo kit, just flows with everything else they do. Part of that expensive, is you get it from the legendary Re-amemiya. Of course its up to you if you want to pay the price.
2. There may be a number of modifications to the Greddy kit to get it to work properly and last a decent amount of time.
To be fair to Re-amemiya, they have a well deserved good reputation and can't afford to damage it by putting on basic Greddy turbo kits that blow up after a couple of thousand miles. Therefore, they may have replaced a number of parts in the original setup to get it to work properly and last longer. This cost money, therefore the price might reflect this.
05-20-2007, 09:25 PM
#61
Another thing about the Pettit SC and Greddy comparison, was that the Pettit was at a lower boost 6-8psi and the Greddy was at 10-11psi. If the Pettit SC was compared at the same boost level, it would be a different story.
I think which you want depends on what you want overall.
If you want easy to install = SC.
That's a big deal if you want to do it by yourself or if you have lesser mechanics putting it on and not RX-8/7 pro-tuners.
If you want better low end or stock-like power delivery (just more of it) = SC.
At least twinscrew SC at this point. Don't know about the AFSC, but I have a feeling it would look more like the Greddy turbo graph, except it will NOT drop off after 7,500 RPMs. However, Greddy's kit makes a decent argument for turbo.
If you want easy to remove or switch back to stock = SC.
That is a point for some people that may choose to sell or trade up their RX-8 and want to keep the kit for some reason. Another reason is if they are taking the car to the dealer and want to hide their FI "play time" or for inspections.
If you want less issues with FI = SC?
Turbo people are going to cry and the jury is still out, but SC may get the nod on this. However, time will tell.
If you want cheap FI = Turbo.
The Greddy kit is cheap HP. I do however question how really cheap the Greddy turbo is overall. I think it could be cheap, but you need a pro-tuner that truly understands the Greddy kit and knows "workarounds" to prevent problems.
If you want an overall high HP number = Turbo.
Mazsport's turbo looks to be locking up this area with 400HP kits. But, many are going to question where are the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Where are the posts of low 5s (0-60) or 13s (1/4 mile) ? However, there is the issue about how much HP you should go, before needing to replace many other items (like fuel pump for instance). The higher stage 3 of the Pettit and future AFSC kit should be able to reach the "safe" HP limit, without needing to do major upgrade of stock components. Is the magic "safe" number 300whp?
I think which you want depends on what you want overall.
If you want easy to install = SC.
That's a big deal if you want to do it by yourself or if you have lesser mechanics putting it on and not RX-8/7 pro-tuners.
If you want better low end or stock-like power delivery (just more of it) = SC.
At least twinscrew SC at this point. Don't know about the AFSC, but I have a feeling it would look more like the Greddy turbo graph, except it will NOT drop off after 7,500 RPMs. However, Greddy's kit makes a decent argument for turbo.
If you want easy to remove or switch back to stock = SC.
That is a point for some people that may choose to sell or trade up their RX-8 and want to keep the kit for some reason. Another reason is if they are taking the car to the dealer and want to hide their FI "play time" or for inspections.
If you want less issues with FI = SC?
Turbo people are going to cry and the jury is still out, but SC may get the nod on this. However, time will tell.
If you want cheap FI = Turbo.
The Greddy kit is cheap HP. I do however question how really cheap the Greddy turbo is overall. I think it could be cheap, but you need a pro-tuner that truly understands the Greddy kit and knows "workarounds" to prevent problems.
If you want an overall high HP number = Turbo.
Mazsport's turbo looks to be locking up this area with 400HP kits. But, many are going to question where are the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Where are the posts of low 5s (0-60) or 13s (1/4 mile) ? However, there is the issue about how much HP you should go, before needing to replace many other items (like fuel pump for instance). The higher stage 3 of the Pettit and future AFSC kit should be able to reach the "safe" HP limit, without needing to do major upgrade of stock components. Is the magic "safe" number 300whp?
05-20-2007, 09:35 PM
#63
But I do note that you have/had the Greddy turbo and are doing a rebuild. It also would be fair if some SC RX-8 people gave their opinion too.
05-20-2007, 09:59 PM
#64
Asshole for hire
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colfontaine, Belgium
Posts: 3,214
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
I'll make a stab at just that MM...
Another thing about the Pettit SC and Greddy comparison, was that the Pettit was at a lower boost 6-8psi and the Greddy was at 10-11psi. If the Pettit SC was compared at the same boost level, it would be a different story.
I think which you want depends on what you want overall.
If you want easy to install = SC.
Install(at home) for turbos like the Greddy kit should not be any more difficult than a SC.
That's a big deal if you want to do it by yourself or if you have lesser mechanics putting it on and not RX-8/7 pro-tuners.
You should never have "lesser mechanics" touching your car in the first place if you care about it. And with ANY form of FI you need a good tuner.
If you want better low end or stock-like power delivery (just more of it) = SC.
Hmmm, i seem to recall quite of lot of posting and threads about turbo's that push huge amount of power very early.
At least twinscrew SC at this point. Don't know about the AFSC, but I have a feeling it would look more like the Greddy turbo graph, except it will NOT drop off after 7,500 RPMs. However, Greddy's kit makes a decent argument for turbo.
If you are in the FI for performance gains, you dont need to go beyond 7,500rpms in many cases. With the right setup you will get more power at lower engine speeds, which is always good. The only reason to go to 9K is cause the beep sounds cool.
If you want easy to remove or switch back to stock = SC.
Once again, if you are competent to remove a SC, you are competent to remove a turbo.
That is a point for some people that may choose to sell or trade up their RX-8 and want to keep the kit for some reason. Another reason is if they are taking the car to the dealer and want to hide their FI "play time" or for inspections.
Realistically i doubt there are that many people who would be removing a kit to take the car to the dealer unless they will be recieving a new motor. And again, those that would/can are also more than competent to remove a turbo.
If you want less issues with FI = SC?
This has been said many times before, there are no more issues with a turbo than a SC. Greddy for instance was just a rushed product, replace a couple small things with better equipment and you're home free if you have a good tune. Besides a "turbo is just a bunch of hollow pipes"
Turbo people are going to cry and the jury is still out, but SC may get the nod on this. However, time will tell.
If you want cheap FI = Turbo.
Cheap??? What do you call cheap? The cheapest kit really known is the greddy, after you buy everything you need for a proper setup you're still almost in the same price range as SC. The rest of the turbo options are FAR more expensive.
The Greddy kit is cheap HP. I do however question how really cheap the Greddy turbo is overall. I think it could be cheap, but you need a pro-tuner that truly understands the Greddy kit and knows "workarounds" to prevent problems.
You dont need a pro tuner for the Greddy kit anymore than ANY other form of FI. You DO however need to read the Definative Greddy turbo fixes sticky.
If you want an overall high HP number = Turbo.
Of course that is the case as of now. The SC's are just barely coming out. SC has just as much potential to hit large HP(dyno queen) numbers as a turbo.
Mazsport's turbo looks to be locking up this area with 400HP kits. But, many are going to question where are the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Where are the posts of low 5s (0-60) or 13s (1/4 mile) ? However, there is the issue about how much HP you should go, before needing to replace many other items (like fuel pump for instance). The higher stage 3 of the Pettit and future AFSC kit should be able to reach the "safe" HP limit, without needing to do major upgrade of stock components. Is the magic "safe" number 300whp?
IIRC the stock injectors can handle somewhere around 310-320HP. If you are replacing the stock injectors out of necessity vs. just to keep them at lower duty cycles, then you should be upgrading the fuel pump as well. As you start getting closer to 375-400 i believe you need to start evaluating parts of the driveline as well.
I think which you want depends on what you want overall.
If you want easy to install = SC.
Install(at home) for turbos like the Greddy kit should not be any more difficult than a SC.
That's a big deal if you want to do it by yourself or if you have lesser mechanics putting it on and not RX-8/7 pro-tuners.
You should never have "lesser mechanics" touching your car in the first place if you care about it. And with ANY form of FI you need a good tuner.
If you want better low end or stock-like power delivery (just more of it) = SC.
Hmmm, i seem to recall quite of lot of posting and threads about turbo's that push huge amount of power very early.
At least twinscrew SC at this point. Don't know about the AFSC, but I have a feeling it would look more like the Greddy turbo graph, except it will NOT drop off after 7,500 RPMs. However, Greddy's kit makes a decent argument for turbo.
If you are in the FI for performance gains, you dont need to go beyond 7,500rpms in many cases. With the right setup you will get more power at lower engine speeds, which is always good. The only reason to go to 9K is cause the beep sounds cool.
If you want easy to remove or switch back to stock = SC.
Once again, if you are competent to remove a SC, you are competent to remove a turbo.
That is a point for some people that may choose to sell or trade up their RX-8 and want to keep the kit for some reason. Another reason is if they are taking the car to the dealer and want to hide their FI "play time" or for inspections.
Realistically i doubt there are that many people who would be removing a kit to take the car to the dealer unless they will be recieving a new motor. And again, those that would/can are also more than competent to remove a turbo.
If you want less issues with FI = SC?
This has been said many times before, there are no more issues with a turbo than a SC. Greddy for instance was just a rushed product, replace a couple small things with better equipment and you're home free if you have a good tune. Besides a "turbo is just a bunch of hollow pipes"
Turbo people are going to cry and the jury is still out, but SC may get the nod on this. However, time will tell.
If you want cheap FI = Turbo.
Cheap??? What do you call cheap? The cheapest kit really known is the greddy, after you buy everything you need for a proper setup you're still almost in the same price range as SC. The rest of the turbo options are FAR more expensive.
The Greddy kit is cheap HP. I do however question how really cheap the Greddy turbo is overall. I think it could be cheap, but you need a pro-tuner that truly understands the Greddy kit and knows "workarounds" to prevent problems.
You dont need a pro tuner for the Greddy kit anymore than ANY other form of FI. You DO however need to read the Definative Greddy turbo fixes sticky.
If you want an overall high HP number = Turbo.
Of course that is the case as of now. The SC's are just barely coming out. SC has just as much potential to hit large HP(dyno queen) numbers as a turbo.
Mazsport's turbo looks to be locking up this area with 400HP kits. But, many are going to question where are the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Where are the posts of low 5s (0-60) or 13s (1/4 mile) ? However, there is the issue about how much HP you should go, before needing to replace many other items (like fuel pump for instance). The higher stage 3 of the Pettit and future AFSC kit should be able to reach the "safe" HP limit, without needing to do major upgrade of stock components. Is the magic "safe" number 300whp?
IIRC the stock injectors can handle somewhere around 310-320HP. If you are replacing the stock injectors out of necessity vs. just to keep them at lower duty cycles, then you should be upgrading the fuel pump as well. As you start getting closer to 375-400 i believe you need to start evaluating parts of the driveline as well.
05-20-2007, 10:04 PM
#65
Turbo people are going to cry and the jury is still out, but SC may get the nod on this. However, time will tell.
If you want cheap FI = Turbo.
If you want an overall high HP number = Turbo.
05-20-2007, 10:29 PM
#67
I thought that was a fair break down. There are a number of points that you made, that I agree with.
You did suggest that the Greddy kit could get expensive... That's like blasphemy to state that... I actually like the HP line for the Greddy kit, but there are things that I like about the SC kits and possible ECU flash developments that has my mind set on going SC.
I was always under the impression that turbo kit installs was best left to pro-tuners or at least good mechanics, while that is not the case for the supercharger kits and it was a bit easier.
You did suggest that the Greddy kit could get expensive... That's like blasphemy to state that... I actually like the HP line for the Greddy kit, but there are things that I like about the SC kits and possible ECU flash developments that has my mind set on going SC.
I was always under the impression that turbo kit installs was best left to pro-tuners or at least good mechanics, while that is not the case for the supercharger kits and it was a bit easier.
Last edited by sosonic; 05-20-2007 at 10:32 PM.
05-21-2007, 02:52 AM
#69
By the way, somebody needs to steal some of those ladies from you... You must be having way to much fun in life. But have fun, nevertheless...
05-21-2007, 03:13 AM
#70
Asshole for hire
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Colfontaine, Belgium
Posts: 3,214
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Hmmm, that one i didnt catch as i was reading. Thats how the AFSC design may/should be able to flow more air under less boost, efficiency. Even if it can't utilize a intercooler, its efficient enough to keep charge temps down and denser, so more air under less pressure.
05-21-2007, 06:33 AM
#71
05-21-2007, 06:47 AM
#72
True, but the aborted Mazdaspeed RX-8 was going the supercharger route...
The choice to go turbo in the past could have many reasons. Being already familiar with turbos as oppose to superchargers, supercharger technology of the past, etc...
Plus, I think the twin turbo was picked for various reasons like reducing boost lag, etc... But trying to come out with a twin turbo aftermarket kit would appear to be murder... Plus, the right superchargers and newer turbos would reduce boost lag too.
At this point, I would not think there is any reason not to go the supercharger route, except for tradition, preference, prejudice, etc... Of course, others may think differently...
The choice to go turbo in the past could have many reasons. Being already familiar with turbos as oppose to superchargers, supercharger technology of the past, etc...
Plus, I think the twin turbo was picked for various reasons like reducing boost lag, etc... But trying to come out with a twin turbo aftermarket kit would appear to be murder... Plus, the right superchargers and newer turbos would reduce boost lag too.
At this point, I would not think there is any reason not to go the supercharger route, except for tradition, preference, prejudice, etc... Of course, others may think differently...
05-21-2007, 07:05 AM
#73
exactly, they tried out the sc, and then didn't follow through on it (though they don't have a turbo either - I think this is a moot point for both sides, but having tried out a SC in .au doesn't lend any additional credibility).
It's even more compelling to go turbo now that turbos are even better than what was used in years past.
Also consider the lowly 1.3L as having the flow as a piston engine twice it's size (which is why for racing we're in the 2.6L category), it's almost sacrilege to not make use of all that exhaust flow. Moreso for us than all the turbocharged 4 bangers out there.
It's even more compelling to go turbo now that turbos are even better than what was used in years past.
Also consider the lowly 1.3L as having the flow as a piston engine twice it's size (which is why for racing we're in the 2.6L category), it's almost sacrilege to not make use of all that exhaust flow. Moreso for us than all the turbocharged 4 bangers out there.
Last edited by mysql101; 05-21-2007 at 07:11 AM.
05-21-2007, 11:44 AM
#74
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Misinformation Director - Evolv Chicago
Posts: 3,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And allegedly, there are "one or two" turbo RX-8s being tested by Mazda here in the states.
05-21-2007, 11:58 AM
#75
I don't know if even DFI can help the renesis meet emission requirements with FI... nevermind all the issues they've managed to come across with the car in NA form. Bad press from issues will outweight kudos for more hp.