The Time Has Come (Building From Bottom Up)
05-07-2013, 02:08 PM
#51
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Why I'm trying to figure something out for internals. Running 7-10 pounds on a stock motor is poopy.
That's not big at all. But is big for this motor
If I did get those rotors, yes a lot more would be involved to support those rotors. I was a CNC tech before. I do understand how components need to work together perfectly.
I see way people do 3 rotors swaps now
05-07-2013, 02:14 PM
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Something to consider:
For the cost you are talking, you can put in an REW from an FD and have an engine proven to make power. Significantly lower risk of something going wrong post-build.
For the cost you are talking, you can put in an REW from an FD and have an engine proven to make power. Significantly lower risk of something going wrong post-build.
05-07-2013, 02:15 PM
#54
9k and Shady are giving you good advice.
10 psi on a high compression motor is different than a low compression motor.
Looking at your first post I do not see much listed for a goal of the build. Basically you want to build a motor to handle higher HP. Well what is higher to you? Do you know what is considered high for the Renesis?
10 psi on a high compression motor is different than a low compression motor.
Looking at your first post I do not see much listed for a goal of the build. Basically you want to build a motor to handle higher HP. Well what is higher to you? Do you know what is considered high for the Renesis?
05-07-2013, 02:16 PM
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Those Ebay rotors looked damaged already and there is no problem with the Renesis rotors so why would you bother?
If you want to experiment then go ahead. But if you think rebuilding piston engines relates in some way to building a rotary then you are sadly mistaken. I often hear how easy rebuilding rotaries is, but rebuilding them to last is another animal all together.
If you want to experiment then go ahead. But if you think rebuilding piston engines relates in some way to building a rotary then you are sadly mistaken. I often hear how easy rebuilding rotaries is, but rebuilding them to last is another animal all together.
How to check clearances and specs.
The 2 are completely different, but you would need to check clearances for both. May use some of the same tools for both.
05-07-2013, 02:17 PM
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05-07-2013, 02:33 PM
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9k and Shady are giving you good advice.
10 psi on a high compression motor is different than a low compression motor.
Looking at your first post I do not see much listed for a goal of the build. Basically you want to build a motor to handle higher HP. Well what is higher to you? Do you know what is considered high for the Renesis?
10 psi on a high compression motor is different than a low compression motor.
Looking at your first post I do not see much listed for a goal of the build. Basically you want to build a motor to handle higher HP. Well what is higher to you? Do you know what is considered high for the Renesis?
I may say 8 pounds with a 50 shot but who knows. I'm going to build something that is safe, reliable and have the most power possible.
If its OEM seals with a port job, then I will have to work off that. I would like to keep the 13b as it is unique. A brand new project for me. Could do a 3 rotor but then I might as well get a different car. I don't like it that much to spend 20-30k into it.
05-07-2013, 02:43 PM
#59
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Ask 50 rotary builders the same question and you will get 50 different answers. But one thing that all of them will tell you is that there is no way to build a reliable turbocharged Renesis. Unless you consider 30,000 miles reliable or plan on running 3 psi of boost.
05-07-2013, 02:58 PM
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Can we fix/CNC the problem?
Get better apex seals, but different materials dont do well with psi. lager ones have concerns for hot spots.
Is it the denotation from a bad tune for running psi on such a high CR. Cant be that much to machine down material to lower the CR. Figure 1500 to have it machined and balanced. But this might lead to a big headache changing other components to except the lower CR.
There has to be something easier other then just porting.
05-07-2013, 03:05 PM
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Assuming that every bit of turbo hardware is perfect, and the tune is perfect, the side seal springs deform under the increased EGTs until the spring pushes the seal out of place, it clips the exhaust port and shreds everything in that rotor.
But even getting there is a huge challenge. This engine isn't tolerant of any mistakes in hardware or tune. You have to have everything right the first time. It's a tall order.
But even getting there is a huge challenge. This engine isn't tolerant of any mistakes in hardware or tune. You have to have everything right the first time. It's a tall order.
05-07-2013, 03:14 PM
#62
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What fails for them to only last 30,000?
Can we fix/CNC the problem?
Get better apex seals, but different materials dont do well with psi. lager ones have concerns for hot spots.
Is it the denotation from a bad tune for running psi on such a high CR. Cant be that much to machine down material to lower the CR. Figure 1500 to have it machined and balanced. But this might lead to a big headache changing other components to except the lower CR.
There has to be something easier other then just porting.
Can we fix/CNC the problem?
Get better apex seals, but different materials dont do well with psi. lager ones have concerns for hot spots.
Is it the denotation from a bad tune for running psi on such a high CR. Cant be that much to machine down material to lower the CR. Figure 1500 to have it machined and balanced. But this might lead to a big headache changing other components to except the lower CR.
There has to be something easier other then just porting.
Apex seals are usually only the issue when a bad tune and too much boost is added. they rarely fail from just wearing out a boosted engine, they typically go in a much more dramatic fashion. But they can be an issue due to the lack of a center oil injector and other things and there is no work around for that.
Porting only makes the side seal issue worse. And even if you do not port the engine, the fact remains that too much heat to the side seals can cause failure.
Lower compression rotors has been discussed at length, I suggest you research that.
The bottom line is that there is no combination that you can come up with will fix these issues. There are so many variables it is ridiculous and even then you have the design flaws of the Series I Renesis that really cannot be addressed. You could make a hybrid engine like Mazdatrix but then at that point why not just install and REW and be done with it.
Oh, and what RIWWP said.
05-08-2013, 03:57 PM
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Many things can fail or cause failure, especially when you are dealing with used hard parts. So no, you cannot fix the problem.
Apex seals are usually only the issue when a bad tune and too much boost is added. they rarely fail from just wearing out a boosted engine, they typically go in a much more dramatic fashion. But they can be an issue due to the lack of a center oil injector and other things and there is no work around for that.
Porting only makes the side seal issue worse. And even if you do not port the engine, the fact remains that too much heat to the side seals can cause failure.
Lower compression rotors has been discussed at length, I suggest you research that.
The bottom line is that there is no combination that you can come up with will fix these issues. There are so many variables it is ridiculous and even then you have the design flaws of the Series I Renesis that really cannot be addressed. You could make a hybrid engine like Mazdatrix but then at that point why not just install and REW and be done with it.
Oh, and what RIWWP said.
Apex seals are usually only the issue when a bad tune and too much boost is added. they rarely fail from just wearing out a boosted engine, they typically go in a much more dramatic fashion. But they can be an issue due to the lack of a center oil injector and other things and there is no work around for that.
Porting only makes the side seal issue worse. And even if you do not port the engine, the fact remains that too much heat to the side seals can cause failure.
Lower compression rotors has been discussed at length, I suggest you research that.
The bottom line is that there is no combination that you can come up with will fix these issues. There are so many variables it is ridiculous and even then you have the design flaws of the Series I Renesis that really cannot be addressed. You could make a hybrid engine like Mazdatrix but then at that point why not just install and REW and be done with it.
Oh, and what RIWWP said.
05-08-2013, 05:21 PM
#67
Meh, I'll take my chances with the Renny, no one around me has a reliable or even running REW in their 7's so that's not really a better option IMO.
My turbo 8 wastes stock Lancer evo's at a roll no problem. And modded lancer evo's are just as reliable as 8's, my buddy with a track only lancer evo 9 is on his third engine this season, he's completed 8 laps.
Replacing engines is relatively inexpensive when it comes down to it, if you hate the rotary engine so much, you know where the door is, no one is keeping you.
My turbo 8 wastes stock Lancer evo's at a roll no problem. And modded lancer evo's are just as reliable as 8's, my buddy with a track only lancer evo 9 is on his third engine this season, he's completed 8 laps.
Replacing engines is relatively inexpensive when it comes down to it, if you hate the rotary engine so much, you know where the door is, no one is keeping you.
Last edited by bose; 05-08-2013 at 05:26 PM.
05-08-2013, 05:30 PM
#68
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Yeah my buddy has had 3 EVO's, even paid the outrageous prices when they first came out in 03'. Like any power car, his all broke at one point or another from both major and minor things. I'm a former subie owner and they can break in great ways too when you start turning up the powa. Great cars though, I am just giving Blackenedwings ****.
The new EVO's are nicer but still do nothing for me. For what I have spent I could have a sick EVO or STI but they are just boring to me. Different strokes.
The new EVO's are nicer but still do nothing for me. For what I have spent I could have a sick EVO or STI but they are just boring to me. Different strokes.
05-08-2013, 06:15 PM
#69
New evo is too ******* big and ugly, I like the evo 8,4 and 2.
I like you, could have a nice stage 2+ sti or evo. But then I'd have to buy some white framed sunglasses and replace all my driving caps with flat billed hats.
I'm not cut out for it.
I just wouldn't fit in at all, I'll keep my weird, unreliable rotary.
I like you, could have a nice stage 2+ sti or evo. But then I'd have to buy some white framed sunglasses and replace all my driving caps with flat billed hats.
I'm not cut out for it.
I just wouldn't fit in at all, I'll keep my weird, unreliable rotary.
05-08-2013, 11:17 PM
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So I should make it a n2o set up. I feel I would get the most out of it with n2o then turbo. I think It would be more reliable as you only put max stress with it activated. As turbo will always add more heat and stress.
I don't want to do a swap as I can think of many other cars to put that kind of money in.
Here is the engine stand I got for $30. Great deal. Guy build NASCAR motors back in his days.
I don't want to do a swap as I can think of many other cars to put that kind of money in.
Here is the engine stand I got for $30. Great deal. Guy build NASCAR motors back in his days.
Last edited by jayrerickson; 05-09-2013 at 12:02 AM.
05-08-2013, 11:58 PM
#71
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N20 is fun. But it sucks having to do things first in order to feel the powa. And filling bottles gets expensive if you use it a lot. But if you just want occasional power, it is nice. But a bottle warmer and bottle opener are a must.
05-09-2013, 01:12 AM
#72
Im still contemplating the Zet kit, depends on how much I over budgeted for my build and how bored I get later in the fall.
Turbo'd I wouldn't even bother, our cars are already a tuner's nightmare and very unforgiving if even the simplest parameter is slightly off. Why complicated something that as is only a half dozen people are competent in doing
Turbo'd I wouldn't even bother, our cars are already a tuner's nightmare and very unforgiving if even the simplest parameter is slightly off. Why complicated something that as is only a half dozen people are competent in doing
05-09-2013, 08:55 AM
#73
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Meh, I'll take my chances with the Renny, no one around me has a reliable or even running REW in their 7's so that's not really a better option IMO.
My turbo 8 wastes stock Lancer evo's at a roll no problem. And modded lancer evo's are just as reliable as 8's, my buddy with a track only lancer evo 9 is on his third engine this season, he's completed 8 laps.
Replacing engines is relatively inexpensive when it comes down to it, if you hate the rotary engine so much, you know where the door is, no one is keeping you.
My turbo 8 wastes stock Lancer evo's at a roll no problem. And modded lancer evo's are just as reliable as 8's, my buddy with a track only lancer evo 9 is on his third engine this season, he's completed 8 laps.
Replacing engines is relatively inexpensive when it comes down to it, if you hate the rotary engine so much, you know where the door is, no one is keeping you.
My build issues are well documented, particularly getting massively screwed by a shop I chose specifically because I wanted to remove the factor of inexperience screwing up a part of the install. What a lot of people don't know however is that EVERYTHING on that car was redone after the shop. I had the best parts, the best tuner, and more money than most people spend on their entire car go into that build. I was also one of the few people running 12+ psi daily without blowing a motor. In the end it was unreliable as hell, and slow. At the time to me it felt fast, but it just wasn't.
I don't know what Evo's you are "wasting at a roll" with a turbo RX-8, but my stock turbo, stock motor Evo with an exhaust/intake and a tune was making 330 awhp and 300 wtq. For a while I owned my turbo RX-8 making 330 rwhp and the Evo at the same time. It wasn't even close. It wasn't even REMOTELY close. In the straights or the corners my Evo with bolt-ons absolutely murdered my RX-8 on a good day. On a bad day my RX-8 wasn't able to turn on.
On the reliability... I don't know wtf your friend is doing to his Evo, but my experience hasn't been anything like that. I had over 10,000 track miles at WOT at 27 psi on my stock motor with no failures. The only things that have gone out on my car (repeatedly) is stock transmissions, first a 6-spd, then a 5-spd. I have a built transmission now. I absolutely murder my car on the track and she never misses a beat. I was co-driving the car with my driving instructor (a Grand Am driver who used to drive RX-8s actually) and we ran 20 sessions in two days in 92 degree heat and the only thing we screwed up was the stock transmission.
Replacing engines is not "relatively inexpensive" and building a turbo RX-8 isn't either. If you do it with top notch parts, expert tuning its very expensive. If you are lucky, and drive it on the street with low boost...you get what? 30,000 miles?
I'm not a rotary hater, I'm realistic about the Renesis. It's a crap engine for boost. I'm not a huge fan of the REW either tbh. The only rotary motor I would ever own again would be a 20B NA and never for a street car. A dedicated track **** with a perif port NA 20B would be monstrous though.
The OP could take my experiences and learn from them, or you guys can keep believing that everyone else who's done this and moved on just did something wrong. Mysql, Mawnee, myself, even MazdaManiac is tracking... a piston engine Miata after blowing 10-12? Renesis motors?
05-09-2013, 09:08 AM
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New evo is too ******* big and ugly, I like the evo 8,4 and 2.
I like you, could have a nice stage 2+ sti or evo. But then I'd have to buy some white framed sunglasses and replace all my driving caps with flat billed hats.
I'm not cut out for it.
I just wouldn't fit in at all, I'll keep my weird, unreliable rotary.
I like you, could have a nice stage 2+ sti or evo. But then I'd have to buy some white framed sunglasses and replace all my driving caps with flat billed hats.
I'm not cut out for it.
I just wouldn't fit in at all, I'll keep my weird, unreliable rotary.
The sunglasses/flat bill thing is a Subie thing isn't it? I dunno, I hate that crap. I don't hang out with "Evo guys", I hang out with track guys, so they all drive different things ranging from Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mazda, Porsche, GM etc. If someone is out there driving, I think pretty much any brand can be cool.
I don't hate on Mazda's because I'm a Mitsu guy or anything. I still love Mazdas. RIWWP has let me drive his modded MSM a few times and I love that little thing. I'll probably get a Miata myself for a daily. The Evo is pretty much a dedicated track car now, so it doesn't see much street time.
05-09-2013, 09:33 AM
#75
Look, I didn't make my post to be a dick. I posted because this guy is about to open up a world of hurt on himself financially for something that ISN'T WORTH IT. I've done it. I had one of the highest whp Renesis motors in the country, the only turbo Shinka in the world. Everyone who builds one of these cars wants to believe that everyone who went before them only had problems because they half assed something or made poor decisions or got work done by the wrong people. "If I do it right, its going to be awesome." It's just not true.
My build issues are well documented, particularly getting massively screwed by a shop I chose specifically because I wanted to remove the factor of inexperience screwing up a part of the install. What a lot of people don't know however is that EVERYTHING on that car was redone after the shop. I had the best parts, the best tuner, and more money than most people spend on their entire car go into that build. I was also one of the few people running 12+ psi daily without blowing a motor. In the end it was unreliable as hell, and slow. At the time to me it felt fast, but it just wasn't.
I don't know what Evo's you are "wasting at a roll" with a turbo RX-8, but my stock turbo, stock motor Evo with an exhaust/intake and a tune was making 330 awhp and 300 wtq. For a while I owned my turbo RX-8 making 330 rwhp and the Evo at the same time. It wasn't even close. It wasn't even REMOTELY close. In the straights or the corners my Evo with bolt-ons absolutely murdered my RX-8 on a good day. On a bad day my RX-8 wasn't able to turn on.
On the reliability... I don't know wtf your friend is doing to his Evo, but my experience hasn't been anything like that. I had over 10,000 track miles at WOT at 27 psi on my stock motor with no failures. The only things that have gone out on my car (repeatedly) is stock transmissions, first a 6-spd, then a 5-spd. I have a built transmission now. I absolutely murder my car on the track and she never misses a beat. I was co-driving the car with my driving instructor (a Grand Am driver who used to drive RX-8s actually) and we ran 20 sessions in two days in 92 degree heat and the only thing we screwed up was the stock transmission.
Replacing engines is not "relatively inexpensive" and building a turbo RX-8 isn't either. If you do it with top notch parts, expert tuning its very expensive. If you are lucky, and drive it on the street with low boost...you get what? 30,000 miles?
I'm not a rotary hater, I'm realistic about the Renesis. It's a crap engine for boost. I'm not a huge fan of the REW either tbh. The only rotary motor I would ever own again would be a 20B NA and never for a street car. A dedicated track **** with a perif port NA 20B would be monstrous though.
The OP could take my experiences and learn from them, or you guys can keep believing that everyone else who's done this and moved on just did something wrong. Mysql, Mawnee, myself, even MazdaManiac is tracking... a piston engine Miata after blowing 10-12? Renesis motors?
My build issues are well documented, particularly getting massively screwed by a shop I chose specifically because I wanted to remove the factor of inexperience screwing up a part of the install. What a lot of people don't know however is that EVERYTHING on that car was redone after the shop. I had the best parts, the best tuner, and more money than most people spend on their entire car go into that build. I was also one of the few people running 12+ psi daily without blowing a motor. In the end it was unreliable as hell, and slow. At the time to me it felt fast, but it just wasn't.
I don't know what Evo's you are "wasting at a roll" with a turbo RX-8, but my stock turbo, stock motor Evo with an exhaust/intake and a tune was making 330 awhp and 300 wtq. For a while I owned my turbo RX-8 making 330 rwhp and the Evo at the same time. It wasn't even close. It wasn't even REMOTELY close. In the straights or the corners my Evo with bolt-ons absolutely murdered my RX-8 on a good day. On a bad day my RX-8 wasn't able to turn on.
On the reliability... I don't know wtf your friend is doing to his Evo, but my experience hasn't been anything like that. I had over 10,000 track miles at WOT at 27 psi on my stock motor with no failures. The only things that have gone out on my car (repeatedly) is stock transmissions, first a 6-spd, then a 5-spd. I have a built transmission now. I absolutely murder my car on the track and she never misses a beat. I was co-driving the car with my driving instructor (a Grand Am driver who used to drive RX-8s actually) and we ran 20 sessions in two days in 92 degree heat and the only thing we screwed up was the stock transmission.
Replacing engines is not "relatively inexpensive" and building a turbo RX-8 isn't either. If you do it with top notch parts, expert tuning its very expensive. If you are lucky, and drive it on the street with low boost...you get what? 30,000 miles?
I'm not a rotary hater, I'm realistic about the Renesis. It's a crap engine for boost. I'm not a huge fan of the REW either tbh. The only rotary motor I would ever own again would be a 20B NA and never for a street car. A dedicated track **** with a perif port NA 20B would be monstrous though.
The OP could take my experiences and learn from them, or you guys can keep believing that everyone else who's done this and moved on just did something wrong. Mysql, Mawnee, myself, even MazdaManiac is tracking... a piston engine Miata after blowing 10-12? Renesis motors?
I'm not trying to say the Renny is something it's not, but other options don't excite me so I'm sticking with what I have. My buddy probably is just bad at building engines honestly, but it does make me wonder about it's reliability nonetheless. Believe it or not, sti's and evo's are not a challenge for my 8.
Compared to what I've spent already an engine is a fraction of the cost, when I get to engine 5-6 I'll probably go n/a 20b, cause I also would like that monster under my foot.
It's not that I think I can do it better than those before me, I just wanted a boosted 8. That and I'm a glutton for punishment and have to learn everything the hard way. I'm just trying to have some fun along the way.
Last edited by bose; 05-09-2013 at 09:36 AM.