SlayerRX8

If you're a bit more specific on the details of what/when/how you want help, I can try and find an electrical engineer or two.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

only saw that one when fairly new and bone stock, haven't seen a peep of it since heavily modded

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

no, it's the perfect management so you might as well wait for it

Moon Assad

Ok, just got off the phone with my buddy. He has been a expert in electronics since he was in high school. He said we can build a box that sends the ECU a signal showwing a false reading to show the expected reading to the ECU. He just needs the parameters to disign the board using diods of different sorts. Im mainly aiming at the signals from the A/F and the O2s. I thought it would be possible but now I now it is.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Its perfect because there is no managment - it uses the OEM PCM.

I'm going back up to Ogden in a few weeks. Hopefully I'll have more to report on after that.

Moon Assad

Isnt that the settup that you cant tune yourself, you need to take it to a dealer? Dont get me wrong, it would be nice for a none tuner with a stock car and the only chance for carb certs but I dont worrie about certs in Florida and I like change. If im not tinkering with it im board. But I dont like having to re-tune every time I want to go for a real drive and save gas. 280 miles to a tank tuned in was my best on the highway at 80 MPH. Also that check engine light that ive been looking at for the last 32,000 miles. One thing that was done to make an attempt was move my airflow sensor to the front of the throttlebody, as seen wich its still there. It made it really hard to tune the lean spot out from 3500 to 4000 RPMs so I put the restrictor that came with the ultimate harness in the 2nd shutter valve vacume line. That solved that lean to fat spot out instantly. I stabalized it to 12.5 with no flutter at all. I trimmed the fuel alot at that RPM. My first shutter valve is blocked closed still. Ive been looking at the controls for the 5 and 6 port thinking thats an easy one to control now since one valve isnt used. Ive been seeking proffection, its just going to take some time since ive only had the ultimate for 2 months.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

So, you want to build a board the predicts the PCM's desired A/F target for all loadpoints, accounting for all possible sensor inputs, which then translates that into desired feedback readings?
Good luck with that.
Even with fairly sophisticated software running on a PC, you would need accurate datalogs of every possible operating condition of the PCM to generate a look-up table for all those possible outcomes, of which there would be hundreds of thousands.
The WBO2S is just a pawn in a much larger game where the PCM is constantly juggling A/F targets based on airflow, air temperature, coolant temperature, barometric pressure, throttle position and RPM. Even if it were only expecting one possible outcome, you would have several hundred look-ups right there. But on top of that you would have to add wheel speed and time at load as well as CAT temp since it will adjust the A/F target during those conditions.

More to the point - it is completely unneccesary.

Moon Assad

How much would those change and if its consistantly in the parameters and sees a settled point its happy with. Pretty much send steady perameters judged by throttle position. Lets say if the O2 sees 14.5 if thats the target for stock running whats it going to do to correct, nothing. If you add diodes with a target drop of voltage from the MAF signal, kinda like the emanage has already but split it at a worked out percent, then alls you have to do is a little trimming of the A/F map then you have a steady control of fuel. Theres more then one way to skin a cat, try ideas and if it dosnt work, atleast its a check on the list of attemps. Like I say think positive please. Look at it from another point of veiw. If I can do this with less then a hundred bucks at radioshack, I have no problem sharing, as a mater of fact its like a think tank, help me keep from making mistakes. I dont have the specs of air fuel and I need stock ones.
ALL STOCK
1. idle air fuel
2. cruzing air fuel
3. heavy load air fuel
4. light load air fuel
5. whats the stock voltage output for the A/F under all loads also

Moon Assad

also I tuned the my first tune du to lack of injecter control with the ultimate and the blue once with the airfuel map alone. It acually held a tune longer before going fat.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Its not that easy.
For instance:
The target A/F for 3800 RPM is somewhere around stoich.
Unless the coolant temp is below 176°F, when it is 13.8:1.
Unless you are above 25% throttle or so for more than 12 seconds, at which time the A/F target becomes about 13.2:1 or even lower.
Unless you are at WOT, when it becomes 12.7:1.
Unless the baro is below 97 kPa when it can be as high as 15.1:1.
Only, sometimes all of that actually happens at 4200 RPM.
Or it doesn't happen at all.

Lets just say you want to do what you are planning to do only in boost. That would be much easier, right?
Except if you send a signal to the PCM while in boost that the A/F is around where it wants to be (about 13:1 instead of where you should be around 11.5:1), it will utilize that A/F value in computing the LTFT, so next time you are in that load cell and you tell the PCM that the signal is whatever, it may be slightly different than what is was expecting because of the newly written LTFT.
Now you are back to where you started.

If you send a fully lean signal to the PCM it will not write a LTFT value for that load point and it wont set the CEL.
The GReddy dongle does just that.

You are attempting to reinvent the wheel, but you want to call it bacon instead. I don't get it.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

oink oink

Spin9k

Moon, no negativety but if it could been done with a bunch of diodes for under a $100, don't you think it would have happened already and been sold for $500? There's been a shitload of good brain cells trying to figure this out for 4 years.... and it ain't right yet, sorry to say. IMHO it's more helpful to get behind and/or support the engineers /companies /products who are already trying to do this and help/finance/support/go work for them!

Not that there is anything wrong with playing like a character in "back from the Future"! I'm sure it's fun and endless entertainment. And I applaud the effort and wish you every good chance of success Anyone willing to play the game is a pioneer!!

BTW what IS that in your engine bay? It looks like a giant metal water bottle. Is there a SC in there too?

Moon Assad

LOL, yeh, I forgot were I put that S/C, its in there somewere, I swear.

rotorocks

Yeah that is a very progressive way of thinking.
Oh it aint worth trying because I thing others already have...
Com on man.

Moon is pushing a good cause here.
I was thinking along the same lines, but being a programmer, I was thinking of writing a program that can (all things considered) adjust the existing maps to keep the target AF ratios, so it prevents it from wandering off on it's own.
load it into a small portable devise connected to the EMU for example and have it constantly monitor the AFR, boost, and RPM and act accordingly...

Say I want 12:1 while in boost, and 15:1 while cruising...

It will watch the AFR, recognise the driving mod and update the the map so it contains proper values (if necessary) where it needs in order to provide that ratio, or do nothing if the ratio is where it is supposed to be.

Something like that could actually self tune constantly and keep your AFR Exactly where it needs to be regardless of ambient temps, altitude speed or what have you.

So long that you properly give it the target AFR values, it would make sure to keep it.

If someone tells me it can't be done, I'd say you are full of it. Because It can.
Can it monitor and adjust real time on EMU? I don't know, not that much familiar with it, I know that if I could somehow be able to gain access to Int-X map and real time change it (not something the Int-X software allows us, but it is not impossible through other means), it would work.

I am not much into Electrical though, so I have no idea as to how to put all this together (meaning interpret the sensor readings into a meaningful data), But then again, I never tried, and provided correct input readings, I can find a way to write to a map.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

A real, working "auto-tune" type of feedback system would be the way to go.
The system in the EMU is a hybrid and a bad one at that.
The one in the OEM PCM is also a hybrid, but a real good one.
Too bad it doesn't do what we want it to do.

A "static" system like that proposed by Moon is just too unaware of the PCM's total interaction to be useful.

What I'd love to do is find someone with the programming knowledge to de-compile the EMU software and give us the ability to re-write the auto-tune function (amongst other things).

Actually, I'd settle for just fixing the EMU's existing capability. Right now, the temp sensor input is non-functional in the 2.0 hardware, which makes the self-tune non-functional.

Spin9k

rotorocks - I guess you didn't read the 2nd para - have a chill pill and try again - the 100mpg carb / hell even the flux capacitor for .50 or less is a noble goal - I'm all for it

re your self tune to an AF ratio - great thought - and it's already been done of course, but it'll cost you ... and this unit has been made to work with the 8 by the way or so i was told...

http://www.autronic.com/page_files/autotune_feature.htm

These guys do it and once installed the unit will just track an A/F for you. They have US dealers as well, there's one in NY that's a rotary specialist, which the mother ship recommended him to me.

phartknauker

Moon Assad

Lets say your ECU wants to see 15 at cruz send that signal to the ECU and so on. Thought id get some support and input but I guess all I was going to get was a no it wont work kinda attitude. Negativity sucks.

Moon Assad

Im going for a ride to talk to some friends on the subject. I havnt quit yet. Ow, hears a replacement ECU that im working on for another friend. Dont you think if I didnt now what I was talking about or have the connections I have id be were I am.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Why do you automatically perceive pragmatism as negativity?

I'm as enthusiastic about this stuff as anybody. Probably more so.
But I've done a LOT of leg-work on this and I think I have a pretty good idea of what is going on.
Instead of concentrating our effort on something that I can demonstrate is NOT a good idea, why don't we work on something that I know IS a good idea.

Moon - get you EE guy working on a way to crack the EMU software and get the temp sensor to work and then we can get a good, working auto-tune.
Otherwise, come up with a way to do it as a stand-alone module - something that looks at your WBO2S and modulates the injector pulse accordingly.

Get past the idea that spoofing the PCM into believing a falsehood is somehow bad. Its not.

eviltwinkie

Software I can crack...I've been reverse engineering software for years...comes in handy in my profession.

If anyone can provide me with the flash image itself I can take a quick whack at it and see if I can do anything with it.

I personally was simply waiting on the AccessPort because I figured those guys had already figured it out...was I mistaken??

cavemancan

Hi Moon/Mazdamaniac,

I posted this conversation in another thread and I was wondering if you could help.

Moon, you asked me for a link to the thread in the Pettit SC thread but all the info is in the following post so no need...

__________________________________________________ _____

I posted this in another thread but this seems the better place for this questions...

Here's my question...
So basically I am asking why isn't the MAF used for tuning purposes?

Spin9k

There's threads around where peps have looked at the code itself and tried to deduce tables, etc. Another from a company that does flash units that said he would have a flasher and he had done it. But, but.... and for whatever reason ALL of these got stuck, ran out of steam, whatever. Suffice it to say, that anything that could be tried, has been tried by board members in the last 4 yrs. Which is not to say it can't be done, RB, Cobb, some others have done it, but it apparently is non-trivial or everyone and his brother would have a tuner box for us. So far only RB has a product, but not a tuning product for us.

Hopefully you can get the code and tell us about it at least it worth a try... you could get rich!!

cavemancan

Sounds to me that those "tuning companies" did not think decoding the EMU was a good cost to profit project to work on considering how difficult the endevor.

I for one would love to see this happen but what do I know.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Its only ignored on the Int-X.
The EMU does use it.

Temperature is used in the tuning - it must be to compute density.
The problem with the Int-X is that its temp correction is innacurate and too coarse.

The EMU v2.0 software and firmware is on my site in the downloads section.
Its not source code, though. That is why it needs to be hacked.