zoom44

so you dont think that they should be able to put money in their pocket? when you worked at

cybernation should they have just sold the kits at cost and not paid you? or themselves? do you buy clothes and shoes or do you make your ow? its not hard to do you know- and retail is like 300% markup. damn those people for putting money in their pockets. what do you do for a living?

Rotorize360

First of all your avoiding my question, for 5k they arent giving you engine management and you are able to get all the exact parts for far less then what exactly are you paying for answer that and Ill answer your questions.

Are you paying for reliability? Because they are the same products being used in both kits.

rkostolni

Can you really use the exact same setup? You can't buy their exhaust manifold and you don't have it in front of you so you can fab an identical version. You don't know the specs on the turbo other than it was a GT35r. There are just many details you don't have that you'll have to figure out. But, you're right, if you do have the know-how to do it then you can save alot of money.

zoom44

no you avoided mine. nice of them to put that list together for you isnt it?

Rotorize360

They use a t4 im using a gt35r because its the turbo they initially wanted to use but thought was to expensive. Im using that turbo instead of theirs and the set up is coming out way cheaper still. at any rate I was being hypothetical because im not using their turbo im using a better one but you can find out what they are using if you put some effort into it and if you use the identical set up it will come out the same because its the same parts. PTP and Greddy do not have a magical touch that will make it so your car will gain 30 more hp because theys old it to you. They are getting most of their parts from the same places you would. The only things that would be different are the down pipe and the manifold and I have already seen the manifold. Its pretty str8 forward and I think the manifold that I am having fabricated is actually going to be stronger then theirs because Im using better metal. The down pipe isnt rocket science either theres only so many ways to do something as long as its mandrel bent it should be ok

Rotorize360

and your the administrator lol, I havent avoided anything fair is only fair if your going to ask a question you should answer mine and as for them putting together that list for me its not rocket science. If you dont know you need a blow off valve and a wastegate you have bigger problems on your hands. The reason I got the HKS SSQ blow off valve was because I found it for a good price. 75 bucks for a slightly used HKS SSQ is a pretty good deal. As for wastegates what the hell else am I going to use delta gate LMAO.

The list that they have posted up is a common sense list they havent gone into detail or listed many specifications but its all common sense. Do you know what a turbo setup concists of because that last comment made me wonder

as for what I do for a living its pretty irrelevant I find it funny how your deviating from a technical arguement and none of your points have any weight. what I did for awhile is tuning and I still do street tuning for people every now and then if some one asks. I know where your going with this and the point is if some one came to the shop and asked me to tune their car I would do it and I will get it running exactly how they want it or to optimum performance (there is a difference)

if some one paid for tuning and they wanted to share their tune with some one else I wouldnt recomend it because of the sole fact that my tunes are very aggressive but they could give those tunes to any one they wanted in fact when I worked there we would give base maps for free so people could get around once they installed their set ups and that ended up making us more money because people remembered that and came back to our buisness.

what it all comes down to is buisness ethics. when we released our turbo kit it was and still is 4k and the kit has better quality then the ptp kit, its cheaper and at that time we had the right to charge a high mark up for our kits because cybernation had a monopoly on the rsx-s turbo kit. We were the only ones in the world who could tune the rsx so if we wanted to we could have charged 8k for the kit and people would have bought it. Companies like greddy and ptp are taking advantage of the uninformed enthusiast and thats my beef with them. theres a big difference from making a profit and bleeding a person dry.

you cant argue that aspect of it to me because I understand the situation perfectly I have been on both ends of the spectrum and so I can give an honest opionion.

So when it all boils down to it your paying 5k for a $2800 no engine management and a name with no real warantee. Because as much as youi want to blow smoke up a persons *** if a engine goes on a turbo setup the tuner will not cover you unless they were doing the tuning.


Im strongly debating rushing this set up and doing the tuning and getting all the work done just to beat out ptp and then begin selling the kit at a reasonable price.

zoom44

so you think its ok to make money on a product you sell. who decides what is reasonable? i agree that a kit with no engine management is just wrong. but what your saying is just like me (or more likely Mazda Maniac since he could do it alot better than I) making a TC kit for a rsx that is just like that one from cybernation and then selling them at 3k and telling everyone else that cybernation was just ripping everyone off. which is just wrong because while the person who does that is accounting for the parts he's not accounting for the labor and doesnt have the over head liek the othe rcompany. thats the discussion not your technical aptitude.

would yours using th esame stuff be mor eor less reliable? well i dont know how your other cars faired. who is doing the welding and how good are they? it could be better or worse. for just yours it would most likely be better since you can go over every facet with a fine tooth comb . now make a hundred of those kits. you know this if you've been in the business.

its kinda like body kits some one spends time effort and energy designing a kit. based on normal business practices and accounting for overhead and examining the market they decide what price the kit can sell for. then some guy in his garage with some fiberglass copies it and sells it for half of the original. is the original a rip off? no of course not.

unreal89

Sort of back on topic.. what do you guys think of using a holset hx40 turbo? Its got a good price. I want to shoot for 325whp on pump (CA 91 oct) and maybe 400 on some higher octane. Its gonna take a while for me to get the money, so Im just throwing some ideas, so don't flame me .

Side note: Any one know any places to learn about turboing a rotary? Like an actual writeup, a book or something. Right now I'm learning slowly by picking up information here and there on the forum. And how relevant is turboing the older rotaries to the renesis. (cause the compression is different, 3 exhaust ports, etc). Basically I'm gonna try to learn alot b4 I even begin.

Thanks

zoom44

got a map for it? reading mazdamaniac's thread on his turbo install plus the tuning threads by him and mad dog are good places to start here on the forum

unreal89

I can't find a map of it, but its similar to a gt40 by garret. Rx7 guys have run h1e's on some setups. I heard they like high boost... so I think a trusty 60-1 will be better. But thanks for the tips on the readings.

Rotorize360

if some one goes ahead and says that then hats off to them. the way every shop Ive had the pleasure of working for does it is they make their money off of the parts as they would normally and they build cars and turbo set ups like this to generate buisness for the shope and to bring people into the shop for tuning and expressing their expertise. I would let PTP tune my car since Im not familiar with tuning on a rotary and how that works. I wouldnt buy their kit though.

I can see the point your making though. I was just overwhelmed by the number of people here who bought these kits. In my circles youll get made fun of for doing that but I guess thats because Im not an average enthusiast and alot of times I forget that.

Rotorize360

I wouldnt even bother id get the GT45R and if you aim that high im power your going to have to do alot of research on cooling because from what Ive been reading and what rotary heads have been telling me the main limitation in power with the rotary engines is keeping everything cool. that was the main problem with the fd rx7. one of the biggest misconceptions is that the problem was the apex seals but it really wasnt. the problem with those cars is the same problem alot of people are going to eventually run into with the renisis when they boost it. the increased amount of heat.

zoom44

and remember that oil does at least 50% of that cooling

unreal89

wat if I get a good setup, yet do a conservative tune like 6psi. I can use stock oil coolers right? Also, what company makes good oil coolers. I heard something about too cool of oil can be bad as well. So I don't want to over-cool it.

SpeedForceRacing

Gtaw,

Your welding looks fantastic. I am a certified TIG so I wanted to give you props.However, 316SS is not the right choice for your manifold.It will crack and it doesnt matter how thick the metal is.316 will fatigue and most likely the crack will occur at a weld joint(regardless of how good of a welder does it)It is just an inherent weakness in 304SS and 316SS.We had a prblem cracking 321SS headers until we incorporated a little feature which alleivated the problem.

Another thing for those of you using the 38mm Tials.It isnt going to hold up very well with the incredible amount of heat.You will start blasting through gaskets(which means exhaust leaks)and you could very well run into overboost problems on a Rotary,especially with bug turbos and low boost levels.This is why we went right for the big daddy 46mm Tial. It costs more but you get what you pay for.


Tim

unreal89

what has SFR done to cope with extra heat? Any oil cooler or radiator upgrades? It must be hot in San Diego right now.

SpeedForceRacing

The 44mm will work well. I dont think the 316SS will crack right away but it will eventually happen. We were thinking about doing an equal legth manifold but honestly with this application I dont think it is worth the effort or the fabrication of a new motor mount so we made our exhaust manifold very similiar to the one you built.Worsk well, gets the job done and so far no cracking.

SpeedForceRacing

Actually all of our testing has been with the stock radiator and oil coolers.We have not had any problems with heat.We are not running crazy boost levels though and we are using a relatively large turbo and exhaust piping so it keeps the heat down as much as possible.



Tim

Rotorize360

im going to have to delay the kit because Im going to the middle east. take care every one and hopefully Ill see you all when I finish my tour