QBallz

And people wonder why Turbos/Superchargers are expensive!?

rkostolni

I didn't get Richard's analogy here at first, I just now got it, in case anyone else is retarded like me and doesn't see what he's talking about, I'll explain how I took it.

The atmosphere we live in has virtually unlimited CFM available to the engine, because there is a virtually unlimited amount of air. The engine only breathes so much though, even with that unlimited amount of CFM. Why? Because even though it is unlimited CFM, it is only 14.7 psi, without more psi you cannot force any more air into the engine.
Just like even though a bigger turbo has more CFM available, it cannot force it into the engine without more psi to push it, but it can push a greater mass of air for a given cfm.

hondasr4kids

I stand corrected, Thanks for explaining. I had someone that was very "knowledgeble" in turbo that explain that to me.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Very, very close until that last comment. It can only flow more mass for a given CFM if it is in a better eff range. I think what you mean is the smaller one will run out of it's range before reaching a high flow range. But you forget that if the engine can't use the mass without blowing up you will be better off with the smaller one. If the former were the case they would only make big turbos.

The problem comes from people looking at compressor maps and picking a PSI they were told they can run, then looking at the mass flow they can get. They then think that is thre unit for them. It has to have one more factor thrown in, the size of the engine.

You could just pick up a turbo off a tuna trawler, that will flow 1000's of cfm at moderate boost. But it will not do it into your tiny engine. At the begining of my thread "Axial Flow Supercharger" I give all the formula you need to find the size blower you need. I know it's a long thread but the basics are in the first five pages. It's not hard math, try it.

Somewhere else I have given formula for almost everything else you need to know and stuff you don't. There are siome papers that are attachments having stuff for mental ************ to keep you occupied between posts.
If I had the time I could put together a thread with just explainations and math but then again that's not for everyone. On the other hand it would be a reference place.

As has been seen here I'm not the best teacher. I know what I mean but sometimes others don't. I know someone who writes well though. And long. What do you think Fred should we compile something together as you have the way with words and seem to understand me. You can unscramble it and put it into a readable explaination we can both use instead of explaining it over and over.


I'm sorry, I just reread your first post and see the notes at the bottom. You do understand the mass/flow thing and explain it there quite well.

Socr8tes

Okay, let me be sure I have this right: you're saying, stock for stock, the 350Z is in the same league as a Corvette?!?

therm8

That'd be something considering it's hardly even in the league of 3yr old F-bodies.

Greddyturbo1

[QUOTE=Socr8tes]Okay, let me be sure I have this right: you're saying, stock for stock, the 350Z is in the same league as a Corvette?!?


NO,NO,NO, But what I'am saying is that A

350Z priced around 37,000
with twin turbos 7,500
Total price around 45,000
puts out around 500hp

Corvette priced around 52,000
puts out around 400 hp

RX-8 priced around 35,000
Turbo around 5,000
Total price around 40,000
puts out around 300 hp

None of these cars are RWHP rated here.. I love my RX8 , but which one would you prefer if your looking for a sports car with the power to go with its looks...
And yea I'am saying the 350Z with the twin Turbo's is in the corvette's league...Look at the pricing you still have around 6,000 to play with to match the corvette's pricing...

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

I once had a Bultaco dirt bike that started life as a 125. After I put a modded out 200 in it anyone could kill themselves on it.
The point being that the engineers designed the chassis for so much power. After that things don't match up.
If you could gat that 350z up to 500hp (and I doubt it without real internal mods) the car would be a peice of **** to drive. The twist of the torque would put everything out of alignment, the brakes can't stop it, the tires are to small, the driveline will fail and on and on.
You will chase the power all the way down from the engine to the tires, increasing capacity all the way.
I'm no one to talk or maybe I am the one to talk because I've been doing it to everything since the '60's.

Let's talk abiut the Rx8 for a moment. We have a wonderfull little car whose chassis is very good for the power it has. This is why you can enjoy the car so much. Even a moderate driver can have fun with it and not get into trouble. In fact I think it is viable up to about 300HP. After that the car will be unable to handle the power properly. Maybe that HP might be a lot but I'm betting it will be ok. Mazda has given you a gift if I'm right.

The corvette is designed for the power it makes. I've owned 8 of them starting with a '63. Last one was a '91. I haven't had one in awhile but I always keep up on the engineering. The General has more money then anyone else and more engineering power. This is not a moneymaker for them, they let it go on because of the advancment in engineering the get out of it.

If you think that the 500 horses someone claims for an aftermarket turbo'ed 350Z are the same size horses that come out of a Z06 your nuts. For how long will that Z engine produce those horses?????????? Not long. The new Z06 engine is hand built from very preimium parts. It would be hard to out do them on any stage. Sure it could be modded and tuned to a more specialized purpose but will it start in Alaska and run all day in the Sahara desert? Idle for your wife on Rodeo Drive while she spends the rest of your money??

The vette will, I bought my Ex three of them. She just drove them like normal and I never worried about her getting where she was going. One of them I even built a little before it left the dealer brand new. Another good story for another time.

Would I buy today? The jurys still out as long as I'm still living here in Chatsworth. The longrange plan is to move someplace else and that place has canyon roads for my daily drives to work. At that time we shall see.

On the other hand I'm getting old and a Bentley Continental looks very good.
Then I could run around all your little cars with four people on board.

Ajax

[QUOTE=Greddyturbo1] I hope you put some of that 6 grand left over into that Z's suspension... and drivetrain.. and then some because it'd take that extra cash just to get up to the handling level of the vette as the Z's suspension and drivetrain werent designed for those kinds of HP numbers whereas the vette's were.

kw1k

I'll take my 8 over an Z anyday

staticlag

screw the 350 zed, screw the rx8, screw the z06! Ferrari? Lambo? Porsche? Viper?

I'll take you all on in my $26K SRT-4

Fanman

First, your numbers are way off. You're optimistically assuming 500 hp for a 350Z with a twin turbo kit. With turning up the boost on their base kit a recent comparo had the Greddy kit at 414 whp, but they had to turn up the boost for that figure. Not to mention 350Z's are notorious for breaking at 375-400 whp in the short/long term. I have personally witnessed 2 of these cars with massive engine failures, one where the engine was brought into the garage in pieces in a few boxes, so add in major engine strengthening. Not to mention the Vette would outhandle the 350Z by quite a bit. Also, in the recent comparo the 350Z even with 350-400 whp were pulling low 13's. Hardly worldbeaters.

I'm not sure where you are pulling $5,000 from the RX8. You either get a Greddy kit for $2800 & get 240 whp, or you wait for the PTP Motorsports unit (estimated retail $6500) and get 370+ whp. This notion of buying the Interceptor, while possibly giving you more hp, is not a cost effective solution. Not that it is wrong but it just makes the bang for the buck a lot less. Your equation is pointing out the worse for the RX8, and highly optimistic #'s for the 350Z (try adding about another $5,000-$6,000 for the engine).

The RX8 is never going to be the hp/$ leader. If you were dumb enough to buy it for that then you have no one to blame but yourself. Even in stock form it is not the hp leader, why would you think in modified form it would be ? If you want 500-600 hp without regard to anything else you should have gotten a V8. If I was looking for a car to have "power to go with it's looks", I would get an RX8, as the 350Z has no looks.

kw1k

Well said fred, well said

Sephiroth

The motor has to be built before you can slap on TTs on the Z. I know a lot of people just slap it on and go but sooner or later they will lose to the inevitable. It costs a lot more that 7.5k to have a reliable TT setup on a Z. On the flip side, a vette with just bolt-ons will easily offset some gains from the TT. In the piston world, there really is no match for displacement.

evilbada1

not to mention labor cost for TT installation on Z's are around 2000-2500 bux. Yikes!!

hondasr4kids

To bad that your Neon to fugly. I'm better off buying a Honda Shivic

Greddyturbo1

Hey Guys, Thanks for all your input. You know honestly when I wrote these comments about the Corvette's and 350Z I was having a bad day... I love my RX8, the style, the way it handles, I love the looks I still get on this car. I just don't like the fact that many of the other plain, simple, non unique looking cars out there can beat the Rx8... I'd be on on cloud 9 if I could have the power of the Corvette, While still keeping my Rotary engine and meeting emissions...

Magnacharger and Procharger have a kit for the LS2 Corvette, that will put out 600+hp, and meet emissions. That's what I'am talking about...

OfficerFarva

I know sum1, a friend's friend, who has a twin turbo z. He came in town a few weeks back, and I saw it. I'm not just dissing it b/c it was a Z, I mean it would move pretty well at low boost, but he is already experiencing engine problems and hasnt had it too long. So engine problems w/ his z after short time on low boost...had him worried for sure.