NEW! Esmeril Racing RX-8 Apex Seals Released for Sale.
07-01-2009, 09:25 AM
#27
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They are very gentle on the housing...their contact surface is as good if not better than OEM apex seals...and the surface hardness of the contact area is easier on the housing. These have their strength from being a stronger material prior to heat treating...the OEM ones are heat treated massively to reach their hard state...this makes their surface too hand and brittle which is prone to cracking not to mention that if the contact surface is not perfectly smooth they will eat away at the housing. Our seals are expected to outlast OEM ones when it comes to miles on an engine.
About Data, I cannot disclose any data, specially regarding material comparison....anyone with a metallurgical background would get a good idea of the material if I disclose harness, bending, tensile and compare it to a few metals so I will have to keep that info undisclosed. These are meant to handle increased power reliably and save the engine in the event of an extended lean situation, they have been up to 500whp without breaking a sweat....although their purpose is to be reliable and safe not to handle 900whp....I am confident you could build an engine with these to handle 500whp and daily drive the car.
Best regards,
Chris
About Data, I cannot disclose any data, specially regarding material comparison....anyone with a metallurgical background would get a good idea of the material if I disclose harness, bending, tensile and compare it to a few metals so I will have to keep that info undisclosed. These are meant to handle increased power reliably and save the engine in the event of an extended lean situation, they have been up to 500whp without breaking a sweat....although their purpose is to be reliable and safe not to handle 900whp....I am confident you could build an engine with these to handle 500whp and daily drive the car.
Best regards,
Chris
07-01-2009, 09:47 AM
#28
It seems like all the things you cannot disclose are the exact things that a company would use in order to prove how strong they are. Without these details, we can only take your word for it. Even if you sold some of these and people install them, we won't know if they are actually good for 1+ years. Were is the real life extensive testing backing up your claims? Although this sounds great and many people hope your claims are true, we have nothing supporting them due to lack of information. Disclosing the information or some information may be more benificial for your sales.
Anyone that has purchased or even shopped for Apex seals for any other rotary knows that no one in their right mind is going to disclose their specific material data in such a competitive field.
Besides...if I post a bunch of material data, besides disclosing the "secret" formula to everyone so they can copy it, 90% of the people if not more will not know what to do with the data because even if they have metallurgical knowledge that means squat by itself other than you know what the data means for the metal. Questions like; is a harder Rockwell better or worse in this application? Is a higher tensile strength a good thing or to we want more elasticity? What are you going to do with the data? will remained unanswered without personal analysis of the actual happenings inside an engine. Testing is all that matters, not material specifics other than the fact that its a type of steel and will not melt under operation. We have done extensive testing, we have had two independent parties in PR test the seals under conditions people will probably not even come close to and for a complete year. I have looked at housings and plates from stock engines with 10-25k miles with stock apex seals and they show more wear than our engine with the same mileage on our apex seals proving the point that they are very gentle on the housings which is the key to durability of the engine. We have boosted these upwards of 25psi with a PT71GTQ with absolutely no issues...we have detonated them and plates have cracked on the engine before the seals went and they looked pristine when taken apart and were reused.
If anyone feels unsure I completely understand and in that case I would recommend they wait 2 more years and wait for other customers who are purchasing now post their experiences plus our release of information as we run the crap out of them over the next two years. How do you think Atkins, RA, ALS, NRS, KIWI, ETC started selling their seals for the RX-7? they certainly didn't test them for 5 years and 200k miles before releasing them. Otherwise they wouldn't have been able to make a sale for the FD until the late 90's They performed controlled material/physical tests and chose a material based on that data and what they wanted to accomplish with the new seals compared to the breakages and characteristics of the OEM ones and tested them until they felt confident.
Think about it!
Chris
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 07-01-2009 at 09:51 AM.
07-01-2009, 10:12 AM
#29
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Anybody asking for Esmeril to expose the exact breakdown of their product is completely insane. That is like asking a software company to bundle the source code for their highly competitive product they've been developing for years. Sure, most people wouldn't be able to do much with it, but a competing company certainly could take that information, recompile (with a few tweaks to "make it their own") and sell it for less than the original developers because they don't need to budget to recoup the R&D time. It's absolutely ridiculous to make an issue of them not exposing that information. While I've never agreed with the choice to have a "secret" turbo for their turbo kit, this is not the same thing at all. Also I think at this point Esmeril has shown they are pushing forward with the Renesis motor further than most, and deserve at least a little credit. If I were doing a rebuild on my motor I would give these seals a shot.
07-01-2009, 10:18 AM
#30
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Chris, please let me know if any of my comments are unwanted in your thread and I'll happily remove them.
What?
Chris just explained that the materials which the seals are composed of and the manufacturing process are company trade secrets. He's under no obligation to give this information away.
Running these seals in a boosted RX8 isn't enough proof? I'm sure that he could provide the 200k mile testing for several years if you're willing to pay $5,000 a set for the seals if not more. That kind of testing simply isn't possible from an aftermarket standpoint and if it was you'd be paying through the nose for it.
It's simple, if you don't believe the product does what it's advertised to do then you're free to not buy it. Otherwise, you can wait for the reviews of others.
I've not had any experience with these seals and have no other information beyond what is in this thread. However, I don't agree with anyone demanding to know the production details of a product when such details could allow another person to manufacture the same product. No doubt with the amount of time, money and effort Chris has invested into the development of these seals he would be upset if someone simply copied the idea.
What?
Chris just explained that the materials which the seals are composed of and the manufacturing process are company trade secrets. He's under no obligation to give this information away.
Running these seals in a boosted RX8 isn't enough proof? I'm sure that he could provide the 200k mile testing for several years if you're willing to pay $5,000 a set for the seals if not more. That kind of testing simply isn't possible from an aftermarket standpoint and if it was you'd be paying through the nose for it.
It's simple, if you don't believe the product does what it's advertised to do then you're free to not buy it. Otherwise, you can wait for the reviews of others.
I've not had any experience with these seals and have no other information beyond what is in this thread. However, I don't agree with anyone demanding to know the production details of a product when such details could allow another person to manufacture the same product. No doubt with the amount of time, money and effort Chris has invested into the development of these seals he would be upset if someone simply copied the idea.
07-01-2009, 10:22 AM
#31
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I agree. A complete breakdown is not what I am asking for nor do I expect it to be handed out like jesus juice at neverland ranch. What I was hoping to get was a little more then "It's an alloy" for an answer. If they don't want to tell us what it is, then tell us what it is not. For example, it most likely is not a cast iron alloy
I'm sorry if I upset somebody, maybe my post wasn't formed properly. A link to the testing data results(with no specific material details) would be great. Then we could see the data that would help reinforce the statements made. I am a firm believer in showing data to backup your product.
I'm sorry if I upset somebody, maybe my post wasn't formed properly. A link to the testing data results(with no specific material details) would be great. Then we could see the data that would help reinforce the statements made. I am a firm believer in showing data to backup your product.
Last edited by jmc23200; 07-01-2009 at 10:32 AM.
07-01-2009, 10:26 AM
#32
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I agree. A complete breakdown is not what I am asking for nor do I expect it to be handed out like jesus juice at neverland ranch. What I was hoping to get was a little more then "It's an alloy" for an answer. If they don't want to tell us what it is, then tell us what it is not.
Also, a link to the testing data results(with no specific material details) would be great.
Also, a link to the testing data results(with no specific material details) would be great.
07-01-2009, 10:35 AM
#34
I agree. A complete breakdown is not what I am asking for nor do I expect it to be handed out like jesus juice at neverland ranch. What I was hoping to get was a little more then "It's an alloy" for an answer. If they don't want to tell us what it is, then tell us what it is not. For example, it most likely is not a cast iron alloy
I'm sorry if I upset somebody, maybe my post wasn't formed properly. A link to the testing data results(with no specific material details) would be great. Then we could see the data that would help reinforce the statements made. I am a firm believer in showing data to backup your product.
I'm sorry if I upset somebody, maybe my post wasn't formed properly. A link to the testing data results(with no specific material details) would be great. Then we could see the data that would help reinforce the statements made. I am a firm believer in showing data to backup your product.
Ok. It's an alloy, most ferrous metals are. Of course its an alloy...!!! It is not cast and I can guarantee you that its not pure Iron and that it is of a ferrous base. Its also a hardenable material and it is hardened to a certain degree.
That's all I'm disclosing.
Chris
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 07-01-2009 at 10:38 AM.
07-01-2009, 10:51 AM
#35
I might give them a shot after i start to rebuild an engine this summer after all.
They're not cheap but they're not too expensive.. are they worth it? dunno but i love trying stuff!
why did you keep the 2 piece design anyway?
They're not cheap but they're not too expensive.. are they worth it? dunno but i love trying stuff!
why did you keep the 2 piece design anyway?
07-01-2009, 11:04 AM
#36
One piece apex seals are easier to make and easier to install but if installing them the proper way require that every time you build an engine you clearance them to the thickness of the housings...etc...if you want to have some compression....even then, you can adjust them for cold or hot engine temps..but not both because they will expand at a different rate than the housings/rotors. So you can have an engine that has compression when starting/cold in exchange for a slight performance loss during operation or you have an engine that is clearance for operation but sucks when starting.
All these are things that I realized people are not ready to deal with at this point in time. With ours, you put them one and you have compression...just like stock, even without break-in.
Chris
Last edited by ChrisRX8PR; 07-02-2009 at 08:46 AM.
07-01-2009, 11:09 AM
#37
Yep, 1 piece apex seals are not for everybody. Setting up the clearances can be a problem.
Since they are so mild to the housings did you consider doing corner and side seals too?
Since they are so mild to the housings did you consider doing corner and side seals too?
07-02-2009, 12:16 PM
#39
I am very excited about these seals, and I appreciate all the work and research you put into them.
my questions is why doesn't Mazda try to come up with better stuff like this? I mean its funny that Mazda seemed to of half-*** the rotary engine, when they are the only ones producing a it, where is there integraty?
its funny that aftermarket comes up with the solutions, while mazda scratches there *** wondering why they don't have sales
so the stock tune is ****, and uber rich- aftermarket tuning fixes it
brittle seals, that eat the rotor houseing?- aftermarket seals, stronger, and gentler on engine
both of these problems leading to premature failure. now fixed by the aftermarket
maybe Mazda does not put in the effort because there is no direct competition as far as the rotary engine goes.
maybe the next RX will be piston driven....
have you guys contacted mazda, company to company to offer some kind of mulit-million contract to use your seals instead of whatever poop they are using?
my questions is why doesn't Mazda try to come up with better stuff like this? I mean its funny that Mazda seemed to of half-*** the rotary engine, when they are the only ones producing a it, where is there integraty?
its funny that aftermarket comes up with the solutions, while mazda scratches there *** wondering why they don't have sales
so the stock tune is ****, and uber rich- aftermarket tuning fixes it
brittle seals, that eat the rotor houseing?- aftermarket seals, stronger, and gentler on engine
both of these problems leading to premature failure. now fixed by the aftermarket
maybe Mazda does not put in the effort because there is no direct competition as far as the rotary engine goes.
maybe the next RX will be piston driven....
have you guys contacted mazda, company to company to offer some kind of mulit-million contract to use your seals instead of whatever poop they are using?
07-02-2009, 12:23 PM
#40
It's not this easy...
Mazda changed their tunes after some of the first engines lost compression early, a stock tune has to be idiot proof anyway so they didn't add power or such, just reliability.
Then you have the seals, some engines did more than 150.000 miles with proper maintenance, i recall a guy over the 200.000 mark and another one with 192.000miles.
That's because the seals in general hold well, except some side seals wear because of the side ports.
Stock seals are brittle and can harm the engine if you detonate or run high boost. Does a NA renesis run on high boost? This is a wonderful mod for a turbo engine provided that they are as advertised but i don't think that a stock car would benefit much.
To detonate you need to run very lean if NA in most occasions, that's not gonna happen if you don't have a crap fuel pump and an ultra lean map...
Mazda changed their tunes after some of the first engines lost compression early, a stock tune has to be idiot proof anyway so they didn't add power or such, just reliability.
Then you have the seals, some engines did more than 150.000 miles with proper maintenance, i recall a guy over the 200.000 mark and another one with 192.000miles.
That's because the seals in general hold well, except some side seals wear because of the side ports.
Stock seals are brittle and can harm the engine if you detonate or run high boost. Does a NA renesis run on high boost? This is a wonderful mod for a turbo engine provided that they are as advertised but i don't think that a stock car would benefit much.
To detonate you need to run very lean if NA in most occasions, that's not gonna happen if you don't have a crap fuel pump and an ultra lean map...
07-02-2009, 01:01 PM
#42
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A multi piece design is pretty much necessary if you want to be able to build an engine with stock parts and have compression immediately without having to constantly lap/check housing/apex thicknesses.
One piece apex seals are easier to make and easier to install but if installing them the proper way require that every time you build an engine you clearance them to the thickness of the housings...etc...if you want to have some compression....even then, you can adjust them for cold or hot engine temps..but not both because they will expand at a different rate than the housings/rotors. So you can have an engine that has compression when starting/cold in exchange for a slight performance loss during operation or you have an engine that is clearance for operation but sucks when starting.
All these are things that I realized people are not ready to deal with at this point in time. With ours, you put them one and you have compression...just like stock, even without break-in.
Chris
One piece apex seals are easier to make and easier to install but if installing them the proper way require that every time you build an engine you clearance them to the thickness of the housings...etc...if you want to have some compression....even then, you can adjust them for cold or hot engine temps..but not both because they will expand at a different rate than the housings/rotors. So you can have an engine that has compression when starting/cold in exchange for a slight performance loss during operation or you have an engine that is clearance for operation but sucks when starting.
All these are things that I realized people are not ready to deal with at this point in time. With ours, you put them one and you have compression...just like stock, even without break-in.
Chris
I for one would be more than willing to give these a shot, and based on how things go in the next few months just might get around to throwing them in my car.
07-02-2009, 03:27 PM
#43
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No rotary engine is going to go 500,000 miles without a rebuild. The design of the engine makes that impossible as you will start to lose compression slowly even if you have no catastrophic failures. I don't know too many piston motors that go 500k without a rebuild either.
Mazda has done a really good job updating the rotary engine, and the Renesis has a number of key advantages and improvements over earlier offerings. I think if they had released the car stock turbocharged it would have a much stronger aftermarket community. As it stands though a few companies have worked hard to release new products that push the limits of the car. I for one am excited about the idea of new apex seals designed for boosted Renesis applications. There aren't that many FI RX-8s out there, and seeing the research and product development into something specifically for us is cool. Hell, if the seals did nothing else but not shatter into damaging shards during a detonation it could save a lot of money not having to replace the housing.
08-06-2009, 12:55 PM
#45
Available now for purchase.
You can now officially purchase the Esmeril Racing Renesis Apex Seals. Follow this link http://www.esmerilracing.com/Apex_Seals.html for more information and purchasing.
Best regards,
Chris
Best regards,
Chris
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