NEW! Esmeril Racing RX-8 Apex Seals Released for Sale.
06-26-2009, 09:03 AM
#1
NEW! Esmeril Racing RX-8 Apex Seals Released for Sale.
The New Esmeril Racing RX-8 Apex Seals are finally here.
They will be added to our site and to Mazdaparts.com's site shortly for purchase.
They are made of a Proprietary material which we cannot disclose, nor can we discuss the methods by which they are manufactured since these are essential for their longevity under operating loads.
What we can talk about is the qualities that these seals posses and how it aids in preventing catastrophic engine failure.
First and foremost, they will not crack and loose pieces under detonation unless you purposefully advance ignition and lean out the engine and then try a 4th gear pull at 20psi
. Even then you will probably damage something else before you damage these. They are designed to be way stronger than stock but this strength is attained with a different method that allows the seal to not be as brittle as stock seals are. If they are run too lean to the point where they would fail, they will bend/ark/sag in the center before they break which will cause a loss of compression in the engine but will keep adjacent components like the plates, housing and rotor from suffering debris damage that usually occurs when you damage an OEM Apex seal and you will likely be able to reuse the components, just open up the engine and drop new seals and that is that.
We have been extensively testing these for the past year in all conditions...with gas and lately with E85 also and boost up to 25-26psi(just for testing
) and have had absolutely no issues with them.
Below find a pic of how they will arrive, jewelry box and all.
I will try to answer all questions but keep in mind that I am very busy so I might not be able to reply inmediatly.
Thanks for looking.
Best regards,
Chris
They will be added to our site and to Mazdaparts.com's site shortly for purchase.
They are made of a Proprietary material which we cannot disclose, nor can we discuss the methods by which they are manufactured since these are essential for their longevity under operating loads.
What we can talk about is the qualities that these seals posses and how it aids in preventing catastrophic engine failure.
First and foremost, they will not crack and loose pieces under detonation unless you purposefully advance ignition and lean out the engine and then try a 4th gear pull at 20psi
. Even then you will probably damage something else before you damage these. They are designed to be way stronger than stock but this strength is attained with a different method that allows the seal to not be as brittle as stock seals are. If they are run too lean to the point where they would fail, they will bend/ark/sag in the center before they break which will cause a loss of compression in the engine but will keep adjacent components like the plates, housing and rotor from suffering debris damage that usually occurs when you damage an OEM Apex seal and you will likely be able to reuse the components, just open up the engine and drop new seals and that is that.We have been extensively testing these for the past year in all conditions...with gas and lately with E85 also and boost up to 25-26psi(just for testing
) and have had absolutely no issues with them.Below find a pic of how they will arrive, jewelry box and all.
I will try to answer all questions but keep in mind that I am very busy so I might not be able to reply inmediatly.
Thanks for looking.
Best regards,
Chris
06-26-2009, 09:23 AM
#4
500$ for a set of seals is not too much if they are really that good.
You can't disclose their material, and that's fine but a couple of questions come to mind:
How strong is the metal compared to the stock one? How mild are they on the housings, again compared to the stock ones?
A comparison would be healthy and help making a customer make a good choice. Some data to back the "tested and proven" a bit would be appreciated too!
Even a comparison with other materials and manufacturers would be a good starting point for a decision
You can't disclose their material, and that's fine but a couple of questions come to mind:
How strong is the metal compared to the stock one? How mild are they on the housings, again compared to the stock ones?
A comparison would be healthy and help making a customer make a good choice. Some data to back the "tested and proven" a bit would be appreciated too!
Even a comparison with other materials and manufacturers would be a good starting point for a decision
06-26-2009, 10:00 AM
#6
500$ for a set of seals is not too much if they are really that good.
You can't disclose their material, and that's fine but a couple of questions come to mind:
How strong is the metal compared to the stock one? How mild are they on the housings, again compared to the stock ones?
A comparison would be healthy and help making a customer make a good choice. Some data to back the "tested and proven" a bit would be appreciated too!
Even a comparison with other materials and manufacturers would be a good starting point for a decision
You can't disclose their material, and that's fine but a couple of questions come to mind:
How strong is the metal compared to the stock one? How mild are they on the housings, again compared to the stock ones?
A comparison would be healthy and help making a customer make a good choice. Some data to back the "tested and proven" a bit would be appreciated too!
Even a comparison with other materials and manufacturers would be a good starting point for a decision
About Data, I cannot disclose any data, specially regarding material comparison....anyone with a metallurgical background would get a good idea of the material if I disclose harness, bending, tensile and compare it to a few metals so I will have to keep that info undisclosed. As for other manufacturers...there are none at this point so I cannot compare....I can make a comparison to RX-7 ones and say they are not as harsh or abrasive as Atkins seals and that is the extent I will go into it. These are meant to handle increased power reliably and save the engine in the event of an extended lean situation, they have been up to 500whp without breaking a sweat....although their purpose is to be reliable and safe not to handle 900whp....I am confident you could build an engine with these to handle 500whp and daily drive the car.
Best regards,
Chris
06-26-2009, 12:20 PM
#8
Chris,
this is a good answer and i appreciate it. Without saying more, where would you put these between carbon and ceramic seals?
You know, other seals are very expensive so the more we know about it the more we will use in our rebuilds!
Recommended pring? single, double, oem?
Just to give a better, panoramic view of your product!
-
Giorgio
this is a good answer and i appreciate it. Without saying more, where would you put these between carbon and ceramic seals?
You know, other seals are very expensive so the more we know about it the more we will use in our rebuilds!
Recommended pring? single, double, oem?
Just to give a better, panoramic view of your product!
-
Giorgio
06-26-2009, 12:29 PM
#9
Man the Renesis has seen such a leap forward the last 1.5 years! More FI options. More FI upgrades to existing solutions. Ignition and management issues worked out. Water pump worked out. Recently all the porting talk and now apex seals! Things are definitely looking up for the Renesis
06-26-2009, 12:42 PM
#10
Life begins @ 30 psi
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These sound very interesting, I'm very curious to see customers experiences with them over time. My biggest question with these is the intended purpose, are these for boosted applications specifically? Mazda and companies like Racing Beat have ceramic and carbon seals especially for high rpm naturally aspirated use, but most of the time they recommend you do not use them for boosted applications because of the brittleness of the seals. If these seals are not that brittle and will fold/bend instead of shattering are they intentionally designed for FI Renesis cars? For the price I certainly wouldn't be averse to trying some in if I was doing a rebuild.
06-26-2009, 12:55 PM
#11
To answer all your questions...
1. The seals will work great in N/A but where designed for FI applications...They are meant to handle boost...lots of it.
2. As for springs, we recommend the use of the OEM springs...and this is how they were designed. The OEM springs are engineering to provide constant pressure for many years/miles and at the really high temps where the stock engines operate. We have never heard of or experienced an OEM spring failure so there really wasn't a need to mess with a good component. With FI the engines actually run less combustion chamber/EGT temps so they should be fine. OEM springs are part of the key to achieving long term use of the Apex seals.
3. The seals are not a soft/weak as carbon (clearly) and neither are they as brittle as ceramic, they are a good combination of hardness, strength and durability.
Chris
1. The seals will work great in N/A but where designed for FI applications...They are meant to handle boost...lots of it.
2. As for springs, we recommend the use of the OEM springs...and this is how they were designed. The OEM springs are engineering to provide constant pressure for many years/miles and at the really high temps where the stock engines operate. We have never heard of or experienced an OEM spring failure so there really wasn't a need to mess with a good component. With FI the engines actually run less combustion chamber/EGT temps so they should be fine. OEM springs are part of the key to achieving long term use of the Apex seals.
3. The seals are not a soft/weak as carbon (clearly) and neither are they as brittle as ceramic, they are a good combination of hardness, strength and durability.
Chris
06-26-2009, 04:58 PM
#14
Life begins @ 30 psi
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The bulk of the cost is dropping the motor, shipping it somewhere, and getting the rebuild done. I would definitely not recommend spending that kind of money (thousands of dollars) unless you are already getting a rebuild done. That being said, if you are dropping thousands on a rebuild already, an extra $500 for seals designed for boost... sure, sign me up. While I hope my motor doesn't fail anytime soon, these seals will certainly be something I'd look into if it does.
06-26-2009, 05:20 PM
#15
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The bulk of the cost is dropping the motor, shipping it somewhere, and getting the rebuild done. I would definitely not recommend spending that kind of money (thousands of dollars) unless you are already getting a rebuild done. That being said, if you are dropping thousands on a rebuild already, an extra $500 for seals designed for boost... sure, sign me up. While I hope my motor doesn't fail anytime soon, these seals will certainly be something I'd look into if it does.
06-26-2009, 05:46 PM
#16
OMG I am going to buy them and frame them and hang them on my wall they are so pretty. Awesome!
In all seriousness, how much should I expect to have these installed at a rotary shop? Also, I do know that the renny engines go bad kinda early compared to the old 13b but is it the seals that are the culprit or is it carbon buildup or both?
Again awesome work!
In all seriousness, how much should I expect to have these installed at a rotary shop? Also, I do know that the renny engines go bad kinda early compared to the old 13b but is it the seals that are the culprit or is it carbon buildup or both?
Again awesome work!
Last edited by AJ's Shinka; 06-26-2009 at 05:49 PM.
06-26-2009, 06:15 PM
#17
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AJ, I wouldn't say that Renesis motors go bad earlier than the 13B-REW engine per se. While there have been a lot of issues with carbon build up and failed engines with the Renesis, many of these were early models (especially 4-port autos) and I don't know that it is in excess of the number of engines that went bad with previous generation rotaries. Upgraded seals would certainly help in cases where engines lost compression due to failed seals, but what percentage of non-forced induction RX-8s that includes is anybodies guess. These seals are probably a lot more important to boosted applications especially if they merely deform under excessive boost instead of shattering.
06-29-2009, 08:22 PM
#21
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Chris, I think you OWE it to the RX-8 community to disclose the material data, manufacturing processes, and the name of the company whom you have hired to build these seals. Failure to do so is nothing short of selfish and, after all the support we have given you around here, we are entitled to this information.
Of course, I am being facetious.
Of course, I am being facetious.
07-01-2009, 04:24 AM
#23
AJ, I wouldn't say that Renesis motors go bad earlier than the 13B-REW engine per se. While there have been a lot of issues with carbon build up and failed engines with the Renesis, many of these were early models (especially 4-port autos) and I don't know that it is in excess of the number of engines that went bad with previous generation rotaries. Upgraded seals would certainly help in cases where engines lost compression due to failed seals, but what percentage of non-forced induction RX-8s that includes is anybodies guess. These seals are probably a lot more important to boosted applications especially if they merely deform under excessive boost instead of shattering.
07-01-2009, 05:02 AM
#24
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Great stuff Chris. I'm looking forward to seeing the results and comments from customers who have purchased these seals. This is a great product and I hope you do well with it.
