kenkamm

I apologize if this has all been covered. I did some searching but didn't find specific answers.

I have a Greddy Turbo installed and running with the stock exhaust at the moment. I did have a bung welded in just ahead of the cat for the WB sensor. I have been installing and removing the sensor each time I work on the tune, because 1) clearance issues seemed to dictate the angle of the sensor be set at below horizontal, meaning the sensor could collect moisture and eventually fail, and 2) I've read that heat exposure will eventually kill the sensor anyway, despite heatsinking measures. I don't want to be buying sensors frequently.

Does anyone make an exhaust that includes a high flow cat that is placed further down stream? I want to permanently install the sensor, further back, so I can leave it in all the time.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

the front o2 sensor on the rx8 is a wideband---let the talk begin
oscd

kenkamm

I purchased the Innovate system and installed it so I could interface with the EMU setup and provide AF info when logging. I did this based on advice from this forum, quite a while ago, and it works well.

That said, can you answer my question? Alternatively, explain to me in detail how to interface the OEM front sensor with the EMU so I can log AFR along with all my other data. I eagerly await your response.

John V

iTrader: (1)

Wow, it only took one minute to get a useless response. Must be a forum record.

tdiddy

I dont' think anyone makes a HF Cat where an aftermarket WBO2 sensor can be installed further downstream. If you go catless you can do it. The TurboXS exhaust system has a bung for an aftermarket WBO2 in the catback but it uses a catless midpipe.

kenkamm

I thought MazdaManiac had a setup where the cat was further back. Not sure.

Is there an alternative solution to what I am trying to do? Is there a way to permanently install the sensor without the issues I explained in my original post?

tdiddy

MM is catless.

Not unless you go catless.

kenkamm

Ok, thanks. I don't really want to go catless. I've heard that really stinks (literally.)

Perhaps I could buy a cat bypass pipe, then install a universal aftermarket high flow cat toward the rear of it? Think that would work?

staticlag

what oldragger is saying, it that, sure heat is going to kill everything in your car if you think about it. just install it and don't worry about it.

tdiddy

Why not just go custom. Buy a catless midpipe then have an aftermarket cat installed further downstream. Maybe even in the catback. Then you can move your WBO2 further downstream also.

However, I don't think this will really help that much because the cat stores up the heat and you still have to install the WBO2 before the cat to get proper reading.

kenkamm

tdiddy, that's exactly what I said in my previous post. Look up. Not sure what you mean about the cat storing heat. I mean, I understand that it's a large thermal mass, but I thought the main reason for sensor overheating was mainly the hot exhaust gas hitting it. I figured if I moved it back as far as possible, it might stay cool enough. But yes, I would still keep it upstream of the cat of course.

kenkamm

Sorry, that approach makes no sense. Why do something when it's known not to work well?

tdiddy

Do you have the innovate heat sink?

kenkamm

I have the bung extender and was going to fab a copper plate for a heat sink, but does innovate make a heat sink now? It's been over a year since I looked at all this stuff, are there some new products available? Last time I was reading about all this, the general consensus was that the sensor would fail in relatively short order, even with the extender and a heat sink. Plus, I wasn't able to get it in there at the right angle because I wasn't sure how much clearance I needed - not sure how much the exhaust moves around while driving. So now it's below horizontal, which will supposedly cause the sensor to hold moisture, damaging it.

Edit: Looked at innovate's site. The extender I have is their "heat sink bung extender."

tdiddy

No, you have the right parts.

I had the bung welded on the top side of my RX7Store midpipe just before the cat to prevent any moisture. Then with the extender and a copper heat sink/shield I still had plenty of room between the passenger footwell and the tranny to account for movement. The midpipe is not going to move much because its bolted to the header which only moves as much as the motor.

kenkamm

Thanks for the info. Do you leave the sensor in all the time, and if so, how long does it last? I'm still trying to figure out if I can get away with that or not. I'm sick of installing and removing it.

staticlag

Because there is already a factory WBO2 right on the headers that works just fine with the car in your daily drive, which is exactly the same as the Bosch WBO2 that you are trying to install far downstream.

Since its "known to not work well" can you provide some links?

Daemos

Here's a solution you most likely do NOT want to hear.

But I found that innovate isn't really that accurate, as you have to calibrate it your self (the question remains what is it EXACTLY calibrating to?) As well it uses a Bosch WBO2 sensor.

What's my suggestion? Buy FJO Racing's Wideband O2 unit with an NTK, it has built in datalogging (provided you have a laptop with a serial adpater), costs the same as the innovate, but it's built better, fully sealed, water tight, you can run over the unit, freeze it etc, and it'll work properly.

When I had an innovate in my old car it was just cheap and junk, and I killed the Bosch sensor when I turned on the car for the first time...I was running too rich for the sensor. The NTK you can throw race gas at it and it'll still keep going

tdiddy

I don't really know. I'm not running that setup anymore.

kenkamm

Hey, I'm totally open to suggestion. Like I said I haven't looked at this for a long time and I'm sure some progress has been made, other conclusions drawn, etc. I'm not going to go back and do a bunch of searching for old threads to prove a point. When I purchased the innovate system I did it because some of the knowledgeable people on this forum said it was a good solution, and it would connect to the Emanage Ultimate so I could map my AFRs along with all the other parameters I needed to tune. In reading those threads I also discovered that heat was a serious issue, and that leaving the sensor in all the time could cause early failure due to the heat. Certainly not a perfect solution! But installing it, tuning, and then removing it worked, and allowed me to tune successfully.

I would LOVE to find a better solution, and that's what I'm trying to do here. If I can use the OEM wideband sensor with the Emanage Ultimate, great! But how? If I am wrong about the heat issue, great! But I am not an expert. If someone has evidence that heat is not a problem, or if there is some new installation technique I haven't found, please let me know. I'm all ears.

kenkamm

I haven't heard of accuracy issues with the Innovate system, so I can't comment on that, but as far as the control module goes, I have no issues with it. It's also a sealed waterproof unit. The issue I have is with the sensor failing due to heat. This is why they sell the bung extender heat sink gizmo.

Staticlag's posts seem to indicate some of my information is bad, and that's fine, but I still don't have a solution that anyone has said will definitively work.

Does the NTK sensor tolerate the heat of this application? Can I install one of those and forget about it? If so, I will.

Daemos

The innovate system is not sealed...the LC-1 right? compared to the FJO racing it was bulkier and MUCH lighter, and it felt much cheaper. It did not seem fully sealed. Esp the connectors, the FJO has water tight connections clips, and gaskets and all...innovate...is a simple plastic clip.

No you cannot use the NTK sensor with the Innovate system.

Most people do not realize the innovate is not that accurate, the reason it isn't is because you are calibrating it to free air...there is no set 'control' for it to base it on.

Other companies do not have a 'free air calibration' all their units are pre calibrated to their own specific 'air' in labs.

http://www.fjoracing.com/index.php <-- check out their stuff.

I've had first hand experiences with both, and the fjo blows the innovate out of the water, the fit and finish, the durability, and the a/f guage is easier to read in sunlight, and I think it just looks nicer.

The Wideband O2 controller has screw holes so you can mount it to the firewall, I had to ziptie the LC1 on random lines as there were no mounting holes for it. And to think I paid the same for the FJO as I did for the Innovate, I sold the innovate (for a loss) and never looked back.

I'm not 100% sure about heat issues with the NTK vs Bosch, I do know though the NTK will last far longer than a Bosch sensor.

The FJO unit I had had a wire you cut if you wanted to use a Bosch sensor, or keep it connected to run NTK, I assume they run slightly different.

tdiddy

My setup is almost identical to yours, Kenkamm. The only difference is that I don't have a cat. This allows me to install the sensor in 2 different locations. One is in the downpipe for the turbo and the other is in my TurboXS catback.

Also, just so everyone is on the same page, here are the threads...
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-interior-audio-electronics-24/afr-gauge-innovate-lc-1-xd-1-a-70333/
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/lc-1-wideband-installation-question-105269/
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/lc-1-three-grounds-where-99673/

kenkamm

Thanks for the additional info. I know the Innovate unit is indeed designed to be mounted outside the vehicle, and I have mine installed near the fire wall as well. No issues with that. I know you can't use the NTK sensor with the Innovate unit, and that's fine. If I had to buy the FJO unit to get my issues resolved, so be it.

The two real issues I have are 1) I want to be able to interface the unit with the eManage Ultimate as I do with the Innovate, and 2) I want a O2 sensor that's not going to fail due to heat.

Does anyone know if such a sensor solution exists? If so, what sensor? Mounted where?

kenkamm

Staticlag, in tdiddy's first link, adrian-1 makes mention of Mazdamaniac going through several O2 sensors before finally getting rid of the cat and moving the sensor back. This is exactly the type of info I'm talking about. Mazdamaniac knows his stuff, so when I read that (long time ago) I decided not to leave the sensor in. Now, I'm sick of swapping it in and out and looking for an alternative solution.