KJ238

Here are the Dyno numbers... With the turbo installed and utilizing TimsTurboMap V9a, i made a huge improvement...


I made 288.1hp@7700rpm @ 0.55bar
Major improvement from the stock 193.4hp

Both dyno charts included

MadDog

HOLY ****. I haven't even dyno'd my own map yet. Just been focusing on getting that AFR tuned in. Is that first one really an estimate of HP at the flywheel, though? It seems too low for that and the second one too high to be wheel HP. Either way, as long as its consistent. Glad it worked out for you, KJ238!

Do you have an AFR chart for those runs? I'd like to compare it to mine to see how similar the AFRs are from car to car. How much did you have to tweak it and where?

Love that eManage! No reason why it can't work if you just tune it.

KJ238

I made this dyno run with your map... untweaked... The only bad thing i experience with your map is in it's lower range 1k-2k.... doesnt seem to want to run... especially when i step on it... engine dies....

My tweaked map is basically richer in front..... and leaner at ard 4k under light boost... But with my map, i dun make as much power as i do with yours.... So currently i am using yours with just a bit more fuel at 1k and 1,5k,,,,

My AF is pretty lean... ard 13 at 5k-7k range... Graph attached

Fanman

Great dyno numbers, but you are running way too lean. You better dial it down a few notches. An AFR like that through the rev range and you are playing with fire (literally).

Moostafa29

13afr? Wow, yeah that is really lean. I agree with Fanman. You go WOT a few times, and your seals will go pop!

MadDog

Mine runs about 12 across the board with that same map. I think that boosted engines make max power around 12, so you might actually see an increase by richening it up a bit. Still, I'm glad to see that someone else has bothered to tune it. You should have no issues adding a little more fuel. Just more proof that there is no one-size-fits-all map - no matter what EMS you use. Still, looks like you are headed in the right direction.

-MD

KJ238

been WOT a few times.. I actually raced the car last night.. not too bad...

Fanman

I'm not sure how much experience you have in tuning, but because you ran it a few times and it didn't go boom doesn't mean it won't in short order. Your engine, but if you are running 13 afr's your engine isn't going to last long.

MadDog

Well, not necessarily. Some of us seem to have engines that resist detonation. I had some really lean areas (AFR~16) before I tuned it. But, I've never ('knock' on wood, haha) detonated that I know of. Still, when the ambeint temps warm-up, you might have a different situation on your hands. Tune it for 12. You'll be safer and have more power too.

-MD

KJ238

I am going for 12.... Just need to wait till i have the budget for a reasonably good Air fuel guage... Well, car is at stock boost for daily driving

KJ238

Got myself an AEM Wideband a/f guage... Have tuned out most of the fluctuations and lean spots... Car runs much smoother now.... accelerates nicely, although i feel as though i have lost quite a bit of power... Mostly 12's and some 11's throughout.

Anyways, the problem i have is with under 3k.... With tims maps, i couldnt get the car to move from stop without giving it a bit of gas and slowly depressing the cluth. It was really lean.. I was forced to add some oil into the start range and it seemed to help.... Although i still cant just fully pressdown on the gas when i'm under 3k rpm.. It will sorta stall... Not sure why... Can someone take a look at my map and give me some advice? This is actually very annoying....

Btw I am using support tool 1.25/1.48 and i can't seem to view the acceleration maps. it just doesnt want to come up.. Is this normal?

Also maybe mm or someone else can tell me about the airflow/adjustment?

Sorry... on a very quick learning curve... But i love it when i adjust something and the engine runs better....

thanks for all the help

MadDog

I am looking at your map now. I can't open the acceleration map either. I would make a new map and start over. It might be corrupted.

First, I am really doubtful that you needed to add all that fuel in the vacuum range and below 1500 RPM. Its impossible to develop boost at 800RPM, but you've added fuel all the way up to 70kPa at 800RPM. The stock PCM should be able to handle things until you reach boost. Don't add fuel in the vacuum range. Besides, the GReddy temp fooler doesn't kick-in until boost, so your PCM will be learning and start adjusting the LTFT to remove all the fuel you are adding. This is bad.

It is okay to be a little lean while you are developing boost. Don't worry if you are in the 14AFR range but below 2500RPM or so. With all the fuel you've added down there, aren't you showing rich? That may be the reason you are bogging. Also, are you bogging under normal take off? Flooring the pedal under 3kRPM doesn't sound like normal operation to me. Can you clarify? It takes me a little more gas under normal, easy take-off. You have added an exhaust restriction (until the turbo spools-up). This means you have less power until you develop boost. It takes a little getting used to if you don't want to take-off agressively every time. I have to feather the clutch a little more and be more aware of things. But its just like getting used to a different clutch in a new car (this one with a lot more power! haha!)

Also, the only reason to mess with the airflow adjustment on this setup is to remove fuel. Dont F with it right now.

Greddyturbo1

I don't know guys, I have just read a few comments here and feel I should respond.. I really would not run 12-1 on your AFR... I believe you are really pushing it and not in a good way.. You can do what-ever you want but everyone I dealt with runs about 11.25-11.5 max....

Unless your wide band sensor is incorrect... I run 11.25-11.5 and have been tuned at 9.5psi
boost.. I don't drive my car daily and I run 100 octane all the time... also I still have the
M-flash... I don't want to hear one of you guys blew your motors, so be careful and listen
to some of the experts.... I not an expert , but I've learned from them.. Thanks

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

11.5:1 is too rich. Mean best torque occurs at 12.5:1.
Furthermore, the MSP has a distinct advantage over the REW in the detonation department.
Detonation on the REW forced the apex seal into the exhaust port which destroys it. On the MSP, the seal has nowhere to go, so it takes a LOT more ping to break one.

FWIW - my car won't ping under boost even at 13.5:1 and higher.

Greddyturbo1

Jeff, are you saying that the RX8 being turbo charged should be at the 12.5:1. Because if you are this is a first, because if I review some back threads I could swear I saw a post by you saying the same as me...

Please educate me if I'am wrong and many others, because they are still saying the same as me... I ask the experts who also told me this to chime in, this is important, because I hate to see people follow the wrong advice, I'am not saying
you are definately wrong Jeff I respect your expertise. But if I'am wrong the only thing that happens is , their car dosen't make the most power.. By thde way I have 284whp at 9.5psi boost with 100 octane M-flash and running 11.25-11.5AFR....

This would be good news for me also, because that means I should make more power if I Lean it out alittle more... But if your wrong someone could blow-up their
RX8...

KJ238

Will try that

This what i thought, but i wanted to give it a try It's my inexperience

Coolies... I figure this as well, but i wanted a bit of clarification

I wont..

Thanks for all the clarification.. I think i'm in a better position to go fool with car now lol.....

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Well, first of all, you need to run richer if you run higher octane fuel because much of that fuel will not ignite or will ignite late. So, if you continue to use hig-octane fuel, you will need to stay .5 below the correct mix for the correct fuel.
High octane does NOT make more power. It simply covers for bad tuning or a motor that is particularly timing sensitive.
Second, I have ALLWAYS maintained that maximum safe power is at 12.5:1 or so. 11:1 or richer is simply a way to guarantee that you won't sit there throttling through detonation.
I am a firm believer in insurance for the stupid. Sorry if that sounds harsh (it isn't directed at anyone in particular), but I don't suffer fools gladly and most people lack mechanical empathy. The same people that will rev a motor to "clear it" are also the same sort that will stay on the throttle when it pings.
There is no reason any properly tuned Renesis running less than 9 PSI will have any benefit from anything over 93 RON/MON.
Also, pulling 5° of advance will do more to quell ping than a whole point of additional fuel with the added benefit of making more power.

Greddyturbo1

Jeff, as I said before , I respect your expertise on rotaries. I hate that there is so much difference of opinons on this subject. All I can say is I haven't seen many greddy kits making what I'am making... That's not from me but rotary tuners whom tuned my car..

Not to get way off the Rx8 subject but I asked a tuner that's installing a supercharger on a C6, and he his keeping the AFR at 11.5:1 on the C6.... And told me that the 100octane is for insurance against DET. but also this way I did not have to retard my timing which kept my power up... I still wish some of these guys who told me would chime in, and you know who you are..

I'am sure you can explain this better than I can, If we're wrong we're wrong and if we're right than we may save someones engine... Jeff I'am not saying you would intentionally
say it's OK when it's not, so please don't take that way... I know we learn things about a new car after time , and this may be OK to tune it that lean, I would just like everyone on the same page about this engine...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Retarding the timing does note equal loosing power.
The point is to ensure that ignition occurs at the right time to create maximum torque.
Using a higher octane fuel may do this, but at the above mentioned cost.
In ANY turbo motor, best lean torque will occur close to 13:1 and best mean torque will occur at 12.5:1.
Some cars will see decent power all the way down to 9:1!. This is because they are not timed correctly or have combustion-challenging issues like hot spots or incorrect plug heat ranges, bad swirl, low compression, etc.
Once again - the MSP is not the REW. There is a lot of "conventional wisdom" being thrown at this motor by old rotor-heads that just doesn't apply anymore.

KJ238

Does this map look better? (see attached file)


Was hoping that one of you can tell me how to hookup ignition timing on the e-manage? Do i need anymore harness apart from the one that came with the turbo kit....

I have to retard the timing before turbo kits in and advance it after right?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The wiring instructions for the ignition are on my site as well as in my turbo threads here.

NO! You leave the off-boost timing alone and you retard the timing about a degree per pound of boost at the torque peak and work out from there as a baseline.

KJ238

I can't really see the diagrams on your site... they pop up and go away... Can u post them?

Not sure whether i can find those diodes, but i'll give it a try... So i just go into the shop and ask for a 'silicon rectifier diode with an avalanche point of 0.3v' ???


Thanks

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I think I should mention something here of which many seem to be unaware.
This is how tuning works:

Pick an RPM. The projected torque peak is best. Set the timing there by calculating ignition at 15° ATDC (which would be after minimum combustion chamber volume on a rotary).
Then tune A/F for maximum torque at that RPM. If it pings, pull timing, not add fuel. Get the A/F right. Once you have done that, you have found the correct A/F for the ENTIRE motor.
Tune everything for that A/F and control detonation with timing.
It is really that simple.

KJ238

What the hell does a silicon rectifier diode look like? LOL I have no idea as a lotta people i asked...

Pls explain ATDC mm.....

Thanks again for da advice

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)