FI Discussion Thread for the Boost Atheists
12-17-2007, 10:40 PM
#76
Nerd ^^^
LOL, sorry; I just throw them together - I am the data guy; no the presentation guy....
But glad it helps - twinks got right in on the heat transfer stuff - thanks bro; I had to sleep.
Interesting to hear if the meth injectors can run in positive pressure; this is going to be a good test.
LOL, sorry; I just throw them together - I am the data guy; no the presentation guy....
But glad it helps - twinks got right in on the heat transfer stuff - thanks bro; I had to sleep.
Interesting to hear if the meth injectors can run in positive pressure; this is going to be a good test.
12-17-2007, 11:22 PM
#78
Nerd ^^^
LOL, sorry; I just throw them together - I am the data guy; no the presentation guy....
But glad it helps - twinks got right in on the heat transfer stuff - thanks bro; I had to sleep.
Interesting to hear if the meth injectors can run in positive pressure; this is going to be a good test.
LOL, sorry; I just throw them together - I am the data guy; no the presentation guy....
But glad it helps - twinks got right in on the heat transfer stuff - thanks bro; I had to sleep.
Interesting to hear if the meth injectors can run in positive pressure; this is going to be a good test.
Nap time...
12-17-2007, 11:24 PM
#79
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Water is basically a detonation supressor.
Meth is another fuel and charge cooler.
Rotary drag cars can run meth only for fuel w/ no intercooler. After a run you cannot touch the manifold upper or lower as it will freeze your fingers. The Colon car in PR just ran a 6.97 at 197 in the 1/4 on meth. He's making a mere 1100 rwhp out of a 13B. Side port + a semi PP. Video:
http://www.agracingvideo.com/videos/...sporty6.97.wmv
On the FD we will be adding a Meth kit to will be for High boost 22psi + on pump (91 in OK) and meth. We will be tuning for the meth.
There are a couple guys running street cars w/ a 50/50 water/meth mix and no intercooler w/ 13B's.
I have not researched it yet, but why can't we switch the MAF for a MAP sensor w/ the new after market ECU's
I have to start looking into my 8 more instead of Dailying it.
Meth is another fuel and charge cooler.
Rotary drag cars can run meth only for fuel w/ no intercooler. After a run you cannot touch the manifold upper or lower as it will freeze your fingers. The Colon car in PR just ran a 6.97 at 197 in the 1/4 on meth. He's making a mere 1100 rwhp out of a 13B. Side port + a semi PP. Video:
http://www.agracingvideo.com/videos/...sporty6.97.wmv
On the FD we will be adding a Meth kit to will be for High boost 22psi + on pump (91 in OK) and meth. We will be tuning for the meth.
There are a couple guys running street cars w/ a 50/50 water/meth mix and no intercooler w/ 13B's.
I have not researched it yet, but why can't we switch the MAF for a MAP sensor w/ the new after market ECU's
I have to start looking into my 8 more instead of Dailying it.
12-18-2007, 07:57 AM
#84
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Water is basically a detonation supressor.
Meth is another fuel and charge cooler.
Rotary drag cars can run meth only for fuel w/ no intercooler. After a run you cannot touch the manifold upper or lower as it will freeze your fingers. The Colon car in PR just ran a 6.97 at 197 in the 1/4 on meth. He's making a mere 1100 rwhp out of a 13B. Side port + a semi PP. Video:
http://www.agracingvideo.com/videos/...sporty6.97.wmv
On the FD we will be adding a Meth kit to will be for High boost 22psi + on pump (91 in OK) and meth. We will be tuning for the meth.
There are a couple guys running street cars w/ a 50/50 water/meth mix and no intercooler w/ 13B's.
I have not researched it yet, but why can't we switch the MAF for a MAP sensor w/ the new after market ECU's
I have to start looking into my 8 more instead of Dailying it.
Meth is another fuel and charge cooler.
Rotary drag cars can run meth only for fuel w/ no intercooler. After a run you cannot touch the manifold upper or lower as it will freeze your fingers. The Colon car in PR just ran a 6.97 at 197 in the 1/4 on meth. He's making a mere 1100 rwhp out of a 13B. Side port + a semi PP. Video:
http://www.agracingvideo.com/videos/...sporty6.97.wmv
On the FD we will be adding a Meth kit to will be for High boost 22psi + on pump (91 in OK) and meth. We will be tuning for the meth.
There are a couple guys running street cars w/ a 50/50 water/meth mix and no intercooler w/ 13B's.
I have not researched it yet, but why can't we switch the MAF for a MAP sensor w/ the new after market ECU's
I have to start looking into my 8 more instead of Dailying it.
http://grs-motorsports.com/noticias/...s/15dic/25.wmv
http://grs-motorsports.com/noticias/...s/15dic/27.wmv
http://grs-motorsports.com/noticias/...s/15dic/26.wmv
12-18-2007, 07:59 AM
#85
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
In addition, some people have experienced idle issues and a general lack of tuning granularity with the MAP based systems.
Even when switching to a MAP based system the MAF sensor still needs to be mounted pre-compressor because the PCM needs to see a somewhat accurate airflow reading from the MAF sensor in order for the TCS and ABS to work properly.
12-18-2007, 08:01 AM
#86
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
Zoom, no, I wanted you to yell at R.I. and tell him to "read the whole thread!".
Then this thread could spin off in another direction loaded with personal animous and drama. I can't handle the fact that we have all stayed on-topic(for the most part) and are sharing rather than lecturing.
Then this thread could spin off in another direction loaded with personal animous and drama. I can't handle the fact that we have all stayed on-topic(for the most part) and are sharing rather than lecturing.
12-18-2007, 08:22 AM
#87
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
Zoom and I agree to disagree on this subject. I feel that there are great advantages to a MAF based system in a Street scenario. However, I feel that switching to a MAP based system has advantages in a Performance Scenario.
A MAF based system will have more advantages up to a point. This point can be moved around some by changing the tubing size where the MAF is mounted but, this modification like all others comes at a cost. When increasing the tube size you loose granularity in low load/idle situations and by decreasing the tube size you loose the ability to tune for the high airflow situations because you max out the MAF voltage range quicker. We do agree that there is NO reason to decrease the MAF tube size below the 3-3/8" OEM size.
A MAP based system is basically the opposite. You loose tuning granularity in low load/idle situations but gain it at the top end.
A MAF based system will have more advantages up to a point. This point can be moved around some by changing the tubing size where the MAF is mounted but, this modification like all others comes at a cost. When increasing the tube size you loose granularity in low load/idle situations and by decreasing the tube size you loose the ability to tune for the high airflow situations because you max out the MAF voltage range quicker. We do agree that there is NO reason to decrease the MAF tube size below the 3-3/8" OEM size.
A MAP based system is basically the opposite. You loose tuning granularity in low load/idle situations but gain it at the top end.
12-18-2007, 09:51 AM
#88
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For boosted applications looking for good power a MAF is a waste IMO. From what I have read the MAF reads to 5 volts and then is limited. If memory serves correctly some want to use a larger diameter intake tube to compensate. Which is just another band aid IMO.
Take for example my track car. Its a 88 Turbo2. Came w/ a factory MAF. There is only so much you can do w/ it. I am currently running a Haltech and a 3 bar map sensor and 16 PSI on pump 91. The MAF could not keep up w/ the turbo I currently have. Its a restriction in the performance area. I have a feeling its the same here. I just need to tear into my 8 but other cars are in the way.
There is no reason you cannot tune the MAP for idle cruise the same as the MAF. Mazda never intended for the 8 to be boosted therefore used the MAF set up as it works good for N/A motors, but is a headache in boosted applications.
Charles, Sorry to get off topic. If we need to create another thread would a mod move this? I would like discuss it in more depth.
Thank you,
Brad
Take for example my track car. Its a 88 Turbo2. Came w/ a factory MAF. There is only so much you can do w/ it. I am currently running a Haltech and a 3 bar map sensor and 16 PSI on pump 91. The MAF could not keep up w/ the turbo I currently have. Its a restriction in the performance area. I have a feeling its the same here. I just need to tear into my 8 but other cars are in the way.
There is no reason you cannot tune the MAP for idle cruise the same as the MAF. Mazda never intended for the 8 to be boosted therefore used the MAF set up as it works good for N/A motors, but is a headache in boosted applications.
Charles, Sorry to get off topic. If we need to create another thread would a mod move this? I would like discuss it in more depth.
Thank you,
Brad
Last edited by Rotary Inspired; 12-18-2007 at 09:55 AM.
12-18-2007, 10:03 AM
#89
For boosted applications looking for good power a MAF is a waste IMO. From what I have read the MAF reads to 5 volts and then is limited. If memory serves correctly some want to use a larger diameter intake tube to compensate. Which is just another band aid IMO.
Take for example my track car. Its a 88 Turbo2. Came w/ a factory MAF. There is only so much you can do w/ it.
Take for example my track car. Its a 88 Turbo2. Came w/ a factory MAF. There is only so much you can do w/ it.
MAF tuning for boost seems to be working fine for the scoobie and evo guys.
12-18-2007, 10:07 AM
#90
Registered
For boosted applications looking for good power a MAF is a waste IMO. From what I have read the MAF reads to 5 volts and then is limited. If memory serves correctly some want to use a larger diameter intake tube to compensate. Which is just another band aid IMO.
Take for example my track car. Its a 88 Turbo2. Came w/ a factory MAF. There is only so much you can do w/ it. I am currently running a Haltech and a 3 bar map sensor and 16 PSI on pump 91. The MAF could not keep up w/ the turbo I currently have. Its a restriction in the performance area. I have a feeling its the same here. I just need to tear into my 8 but other cars are in the way.
There is no reason you cannot tune the MAP for idle cruise the same as the MAF. Mazda never intended for the 8 to be boosted therefore used the MAF set up as it works good for N/A motors, but is a headache in boosted applications.
Charles, Sorry to get off topic. If we need to create another thread would a mod move this? I would like discuss it in more depth.
Thank you,
Brad
Take for example my track car. Its a 88 Turbo2. Came w/ a factory MAF. There is only so much you can do w/ it. I am currently running a Haltech and a 3 bar map sensor and 16 PSI on pump 91. The MAF could not keep up w/ the turbo I currently have. Its a restriction in the performance area. I have a feeling its the same here. I just need to tear into my 8 but other cars are in the way.
There is no reason you cannot tune the MAP for idle cruise the same as the MAF. Mazda never intended for the 8 to be boosted therefore used the MAF set up as it works good for N/A motors, but is a headache in boosted applications.
Charles, Sorry to get off topic. If we need to create another thread would a mod move this? I would like discuss it in more depth.
Thank you,
Brad
I'm not getting into what is easier to tune but my RX-7 does run a map based system too.
12-18-2007, 10:11 AM
#91
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How many renny guys are making 400+ on the MAF system?
I have 2 cars I can get in today w/ 400+ to the wheels on a MAP based system both rotary.
You cann't compare setups on evos and scoobies and compare that to an 13b.
I am not running the stock T2 computer. I have a Haltech E8 and a 3 bar MAP good for 29.4 PSI. Can the MAF handle that? Look at all high hp rotaries and tell me if you find a MAF.
I have 2 cars I can get in today w/ 400+ to the wheels on a MAP based system both rotary.
You cann't compare setups on evos and scoobies and compare that to an 13b.
I am not running the stock T2 computer. I have a Haltech E8 and a 3 bar MAP good for 29.4 PSI. Can the MAF handle that? Look at all high hp rotaries and tell me if you find a MAF.
12-18-2007, 10:14 AM
#92
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The principles are the same there are just some different components to figure out.
Thats what we are here to do. If we wait for someone else we will just be well waiting.
Thats what we are here to do. If we wait for someone else we will just be well waiting.
12-18-2007, 10:17 AM
#93
No means yes
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RI - actually if you look at Kane's graph, there is plenty of resolution down low. Even if we compress it significantly by expanding the range, I would not expect to have any problems with idle operation using a larger ID sensor.
Actually, I would be more concerned about losing resolution at the top end. This might be a drawback of adjusting the MAF sensor in this way...
Actually, I would be more concerned about losing resolution at the top end. This might be a drawback of adjusting the MAF sensor in this way...
12-18-2007, 10:19 AM
#94
No means yes
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Exactly. The principles are the same. Don't dismiss what works for subaru / evo cos at the end of the day all we're trying to figure out is how much air made it into the engine.
12-18-2007, 10:27 AM
#95
Registered
That's irrelevant. It's not the MAF that is holding anyone back from doing that. It's compression and strength of other components. The MAF flows MORE than ANY other part of the Renesis intake so I don't see how it could EVER be a flow restriction. You'd run out of resolution before flow ever became an issue.
12-18-2007, 10:29 AM
#96
Since we are FI guys - I will start with pressure gradients - thinking in terms of the General Gas Law / Ideal Gas Law we know that for a specific period of time a larger pressure gradient will create faster airflow than a smaller one.
The same is true for temperature - like pressure temperature will always equalize given enough time - but since our time frame is short - we want to find the largest temperature differential to hit with our specific energy (meth shot). For X period of time - Y specific energy will have a larger impact when the temperature differential is say 50 degrees versus 10. This is why coffee sems to chill faster than room temp water would given the same ambient temperature (say 10 degrees below room temp).
Liquid (I will use water as an example) is better than gas because it conducts heat 10 times better (10 or more - looking for reference). But regardless of the efficiency of the liquid - the fact remains that the change in temperature can be optimized be introduction at the highest temp gradient.
The same is true for temperature - like pressure temperature will always equalize given enough time - but since our time frame is short - we want to find the largest temperature differential to hit with our specific energy (meth shot). For X period of time - Y specific energy will have a larger impact when the temperature differential is say 50 degrees versus 10. This is why coffee sems to chill faster than room temp water would given the same ambient temperature (say 10 degrees below room temp).
Liquid (I will use water as an example) is better than gas because it conducts heat 10 times better (10 or more - looking for reference). But regardless of the efficiency of the liquid - the fact remains that the change in temperature can be optimized be introduction at the highest temp gradient.
12-18-2007, 10:31 AM
#97
I understand the quest for raw power , but lets not forget the majority on 8 owners that just want a good increase, streetability and a pretty good road track car. IMHO on the drag strip this car does not belong. Not that you cant drag with it--you can ---BUT this is a road race car.
If you tune for the best result from an injection kit then a flash will not work? You need more control to take full advantage of the cooler charge and the increase in octane?
If you get an injection kit just for charge cooling then you can run the flash Pettit has and run the injection kit when you want it? No additional tuning required?
So if you are using the injection kit all the time(tuned for it) how long does a the adverage bottle of mixture last? On the strip I now it doesnt last long---maybe 15 runs or so. Course that is wot
adverage Joe questions.
oscd
If you tune for the best result from an injection kit then a flash will not work? You need more control to take full advantage of the cooler charge and the increase in octane?
If you get an injection kit just for charge cooling then you can run the flash Pettit has and run the injection kit when you want it? No additional tuning required?
So if you are using the injection kit all the time(tuned for it) how long does a the adverage bottle of mixture last? On the strip I now it doesnt last long---maybe 15 runs or so. Course that is wot
adverage Joe questions.
oscd
12-18-2007, 10:32 AM
#98
There are a couple things standing in the way of that right now. The MAF is not one of them. When the 8 is 20 years old there is no doubt in my mind there will be as many or more 400whp+ 8's as there are 7's. And they will do it on MAF systems.
Why not? I'm not so much comparing the motors as the computer/sensor setups. The computer doesn't care where the air ends up. It's metering the air to determine the fueling (and timing) needs. It doesn't care about reciporicating or wankling.
The great thing about MAF tuning and flash capabilities are not having to go to an auxiliary engine management. The OE computer can be retained, which is very nice considering all the functionality that is built in and how the dash lights up like a Christmas tree (Happy holidays!) when you try to take away its control.
Just because the tuning solutions have not existed in the past to properly setup a high horsepower MAF based system - or it was just more familiar to the tuner - to do a MAP system doesn't mean it can't be done or even that MAP is optimal.
Last edited by mac11; 12-18-2007 at 10:48 AM.
12-18-2007, 10:33 AM
#99
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I was talking about the various 13B's. I have a good buddy w/ a STI and it is in no way like modding a rotary.
Anyhow you guys keep up the good work I have a few meetings to attend and I'll catch ya later.
Anyhow you guys keep up the good work I have a few meetings to attend and I'll catch ya later.
12-18-2007, 10:39 AM
#100
In bold
If you tune for the best result from an injection kit then a flash will not work? If you use it for cooling only then it won't affect the tune.
You need more control to take full advantage of the cooler charge and the increase in octane? You would need to tune timing more aggressively (and pull fuel if you are running overrich to avoid detonation) to take full advantage of both.
If you get an injection kit just for charge cooling then you can run the flash Pettit has and run the injection kit when you want it? No additional tuning required? As far as I can see - correct.
So if you are using the injection kit all the time(tuned for it) how long does a the adverage bottle of mixture last? On the strip I now it doesnt last long---maybe 15 runs or so. Course that is wot - Have no idea personally; but either way; I would only add tuning for meth as a race option (and I would even argue 1/4 only). Bad things can happen if you don't switch back your tune.
adverage Joe questions.
oscd
You need more control to take full advantage of the cooler charge and the increase in octane? You would need to tune timing more aggressively (and pull fuel if you are running overrich to avoid detonation) to take full advantage of both.
If you get an injection kit just for charge cooling then you can run the flash Pettit has and run the injection kit when you want it? No additional tuning required? As far as I can see - correct.
So if you are using the injection kit all the time(tuned for it) how long does a the adverage bottle of mixture last? On the strip I now it doesnt last long---maybe 15 runs or so. Course that is wot
- Have no idea personally; but either way; I would only add tuning for meth as a race option (and I would even argue 1/4 only). Bad things can happen if you don't switch back your tune.adverage Joe questions.
oscd