Esmeril Racing 20b conversion kit/guide....testing the waters!
 

The purpose of this thread is to really get a grasp about what people are looking for in the RX-8 community.

We have pushed the Renesis pretty far compared to our original goals, and now feel as though we will continue to support it as a platform but want to expand the options to our customers.

Its as simple as this, if you want in the range if 400whp or less(reliably) you can do that with our kit and some add-ons(Ignition,apex seals, etc) we currently sell.

However, if you want more, say 500-600 and above, and you want road-course reliability (i.e. full power/boost for long periods of time) then the renesis would be on the edge of reliability. For this, we know there is an option, add a 3rd triangle to handle some of the load and voila, you have reliable power up to a crazy level. So far, only custom builds have been done, be it by a shop or independent talented few that have gone this route. This proves to either require great skill (like the geniuses rgonza, anjeljoel etc...) or lots of money like going to a shop and paying 30k to get it done....or getting scammed for that matter.

I am opening this thread for discussion on the following and only on the following:

Should Esmeril offer a simple, DIY type kit that includes engine mounts, a steering column extension, a turbo manifold, a couple cross member extensions, a radiator and a guide with pictures, would there be enough people interested to warrant development of such a kit?

It will still require mechanical/fabrication ability as you will still need to make your own intercooler piping and down pipe(to match your turbo), modification to the cross member per the guide, fuel system, and the EMS install of your choice(we could offer a fuel system separately). If you feel you have an issue setting up some intercooler piping and welding a down pipe you probably should not be going down this road in the first place but a lot of people have the ability and only need a nudge and this could be it.

Let me know what you think...

Best regards,

Chris

I was just talking with my tuner about this the other day. What would we have to address in the drivetrain? replacement? Maybe there could be parts and adapters that would let you bolt up the FD's 5spd.

How about a DIY for a 13b REW?

I know for a fact (Rgonza's testimony) that the FD tranny last less than the RX-8 tranny when attached to a 20b. I also know for a fact that the rx-8 tranny doesn't break until at least 550whp unless you are abusive. I have proved that and Rgonza drove for over a year on a stock RX-8 tranny with 700whp+ simply because he wasn't abusing the car with slicks on a race track....and did plenty of high powered runs in that period of time.

Either way, we will let the buyers find their own ways to cope with this, we are just facilitating putting the 20b in the RX-8.

Chris

I think this offering is a great idea. I definitely agree as you already noted that a plug and play Microtech/Haltech, etc...would be a desired option.

i like the idea of a 13b diy, but it is something i would definitely be interested in down the road

1. Sounds great and I could be interested down the road also.

2. Just a thought, but would it have to be turbo?

3. Of course you can use my car for testing! :)

It does not have to be turbo, why would it? N/A is a great option for this engine.

Chris

p.s.I appreciate your offering but I wouldn't mind testing this on my car ;)

Esmeril Racing being an advocate for the Renesis, we are kind off against doing 13b swaps...simply because all the work/fabrication is not worth it in our eyes when we know what the renesis can do. A 13b REW at 500whp and above is not the most reliable thing either, its just been done alot more times so why spend all the time and money for an engine swap for a marginal improvement of what can be done with a renesis?

Chris

^^

I think with more time and exploration such as yours, the renny will be able to out perform a 13B.. Think about the age difference.. :P

Agree 100%

Exactly, we could not agree more...the engine IS limited by the port size and shape but I know 500hp can be done reliable ;)...and it has a great power band when done correctly.

Above 500whp, even a traditional 13b is not that reliable...many people reach it...but few enjoy their car at that level on a daily basis for more than a year or two(noticed I said few), this few perform many modifications to the engine which would not be necessary in a 20b for the same whp levels. For that we are considering offering this 20b option.

Chris

Would your engine mounts be for a peripheral port 3 rotor, or side port 3 rotor?

They would be for a 3 rotor period (whatever intake port you desire), the intake port does not affect a 3 rotor regarding engine mount location.

Chris

------

This is a great idea, I think that the largest limiting factor is going to be potential market. How many kits would you have to expect to sell for you to consider it a worthwhile project? 10? 20? 100?

My feeling is that the number of people is pretty limited who fall into the range of desires and abilities for whom this would be a good solution. They would have to:
a) think that 400whp is not enough. (most people who think that have never driven a 400hp car!)
AND
b) not have the fabrication ability to do it themselves
AND
c) want to pay someone local to install your kit but not simply have that person do a 20b swap (which is pricey, but could be offset a little by selling the original engine.

Good luck, it's excellent that you're considering this, but I dont know how big the market would be.

No and no.

We do not intend to make this a drop in affair by any means. This is for those that want/can tackle the process of the swap including any sub-systems. ER does not want to be liable for this kind of project, we are just wondering if facilitating a semi-kit(emphasis on "semi") makes sense. It would be meant to simplify the process for those that want to go down this road.....

So far from the reply's and pm's I have gotten since I started the thread, we probably should not go down this road....the rx-8 community does not appear to be ready for such a thing(at least that is what its looking like)...this is not a turbo kit or an ignition upgrade we are talking about here....its a complete engine swap, questions about MPG, CEL's and "make it Bolt-on" are a clear indication that maybe we are not ready for this kind of product just yet...

it was a noble thought though...

Chris

Ahh i see. OK then :)

I think this would be a great product to put out on the market. I would probably eventually pick one up depending on the price. I want to to be well over 400 whp.:rock:

I think you should make a 3 rotor renesis kit...

This is not a bad idea Chris, the only problem would be modifying the crossmember. That's a pain.
Adding a wiring harness for a given ECU to retain the stock pcm as well would be sweet :)

Sorry I didn't read the post properly first time, now I realise you were only considering making supporting modifications to enable you to install your own 3 rotor.

I agree that this is not a feasible product at this time. I think this could be great in a couple of years. I just dont think that the average owner would have the money to invest in a 20b swap AT THIS TIME. Me personally, I wont be done paying off me car until mid 2010. I would buy this kit, but until my car is paid off i wouldn't want to over-exstend my budget. I would hope you would maybe consider trying this again later down the line.

I would like to see this Chris.
Good idea !!!!

I think it's a great idea, Chris. The problem is even with a reasonably priced conversion kit, you still need a built 20B, turbo setup, fuel system, standalone EMS, and more so in the end it's still a VERY expensive project and really only a few owners can afford it.

I still think you should offer it, Chris. It would help turn heads to the RX-8, as well.

I agree with that but its good to understand that a stock port 20B with a set of apex seals(which are just 350$) and no dowel pinning can generate 600-650whp on just 15psi and pump gas. So if you get an engine, a Oring set, a set of apex seals and some time is all it takes to get it "built"...its not as extensive as attempting the same feat on a 13B. You can get a 20b for about 2500 if you really search hard plus say the kit is 2.5 grand....and all the other stuff is 3000....you could potentially end up with a 20b conversion that is around 8-10k which is not that bad considering Mazsport was selling their turbo kit for that much and actually sold a few and it was rated for mid to high 400whp (I have yet to see one break 400whp).

Best regards,

Chris

conversion kit to a greater displacement engine.

great idea.

but you have the wrong engine. you need to make a conversion kit for the LS1. then you'll see some real interest.

Take post #8 in this thread and replace ls1 with 13b....;)

It just goes against our philosophy.

Chris

I'm up for anything that adds ALOT more power and reliability!!!

I think this is a great idea weather we buy it now or later the development needs to start the more parts are on the market the better. this worked for the honda.
but i still have to pay off my car before i can even think about a 20b

Great idea!!! I think it would be a good starting point for many less experienced rotary shops, or just shops in general if you could sell it to them. If lets say local shops would be willing to do this in the 10-20k range with your product/guide I think there would be many interested people. I know I would be :) Paying 30k+ at this point is a little much.
How about a 4 rotor conversion kit...

i know the only way i would be willing to pay 30k for an engine swap is if it shot 50' flames and i could do the 1/4 in the 7's. so having an option that is reasonably priced is now looking interesting. i know "reasonably priced" is a realative statement but i would say reliable power coming from a realatively stockor slightly modified motor justifies the reasonably priced statement.

With the 8 being relatively new on the market and many have yet to pay off their cars and dont have the time and money to do it themselves, I believe that if someone were to come out and actually piece it all together to make it a complete turnkey swap, I believe that you would see many jump on that. All that needs to be done (easier said than done) is to make a complete bolt on kit with all the goodies and people will jump on it especially with the NA version of the 20B. Until this is done, you will still have some who are very mechanically inclined and have the time and money to do it themselves but, if there was a complete kit or a shop that specialized in this and all people had to do was drop their car off and pick it up later as you see with FI shops, I believe people would prefer this more. Maybe, one day, this will happen. A turn-key 400whp 20b 8 is very tempting as long as the price is reasonable. When and if this will ever be done, hard to say.

Whats everbodys fascination with shooting flames on this site!!?? I'd be more worried about tearing up every car I face than shooting ricey flames

the "shooting flames" part was a joke. i was just emphesising that i would want out right extreme for 30k. like the ability to wrinkle the asphault under my tire for that kind of $$. don't really give a shit about flames. that's all

Just make a simple bolt on subframe, so people won't have to cut and extend their's, new engine mounts, and the steering shaft extension. Nothing else, everything else can be diy-just like some shops do for the FD. That's all I would be interested in! DO IT......and at a good price!

Interested...

i know the only way i would be willing to pay 30k for an engine swap is if i had 30k :P

Chris, you guys are awesome. Please do this so i can sell my TII and make this happen for my 8! Then let me move up there and work for you hah

This is the way I understand it, correct me if I am wrong, but a 20B swap can cost $30K ++++++++++? Not to mention all the time it takes for fabrication of the subframe, mounts, etc. Time is also money.

So lets say you decide to make the kit. Let's also say I have no skill in DIY (not that far from the truth). I purchase the kit from you and source all the parts including the engine and seals. Then give my car to a shop to get a 20B swap. Am I right in thinking your kit would potentially save me thousands in custom fabrication costs due to the amount of labor saved?

I paid the Rx8 off already so I'm close to project time. If forced induction can cost 8 to 10 K...It would be awsome if we could attain a 20B swap for another $5 k or so. I bet your going to tell me I am SOL though. Realistically it prob would be closer to $25k.

:dunno:

an LS1 can do 400-500whp n/a and be far more reliable than a rotary at those horsepower numbers. and it'll have more torque and get better gas mileage. a friend of mine has an ls1 camaro that has 400whp and he gets 23mpg averaged. our car weighs 700lbs less, we'll get even better mpg. now thats just a nice engine.

agree with you there . BUT you destroy the soul of the car by doing that IMO . The thing that turned me from someone interested in cars to an enthusiast was the rotary engine .

the fast and the furious made me an enthusiast.

:lol:

Dear Heavenly Spirit, thank you for providing us with the direct-port nitrous injection, 4 core intercoolers, ball bearing turbos, and titanium valve springs, Amen.

I would seriously consider an LSX swap if I could buy a kit to make it happen.

IMO, an LS swap is retarded. If you want the best platform for a 400hp LS V8, get a Vette. That much weight up front completely destroys the balance of the car, so besides going a lot faster in a straight line, i don't get it. with a turbo 3 Rotor Renny, you wouldn't be sacrificing that much balance, and you wouldn't destroy the feeling/soul of the car. An RX-anything should be rotary. Period.

You say that much weight? 2 people can pick up a LS1, kind of like 2 people can pick up a Renesis. Its an ALL ALUMINUM engine. It weighs at most 50-100 lbs more than a renesis, THATS IT.

Come on guys, I know engine swaps excite everyone but lets stay on subject....we can discuss other engine swaps in a different thread...the purpose of this one is very clear...

Chris

And clearly, I would have interest in a product like this :icon_tup: Great ideas, and enthusiasm for the platform, Chris.

Very Interested but its not a feasible option for the rx8 community just yet. I think a few years down the road a kit like you intend would work.

3-rotor with a turbo weights more than an LS6...

^ idgaf, rotor> piston.....