Don't get me wrong, I still love rotaries, but the weight argument holds little water

ok:)

I really like the idea of the kit however for the money at this point in time I couldnt do it....Definitely be interested in years to come though when I have the 10k or whatever it would take to spend on it

Exactly. What is the point of swapping in a piston engine? If I wanted to do that, I would have bought an FC and did the whole thing for under 20k. Once you do that swap, you dont have an rx anymore. the whole point of the rotary is that you can keep your weight distribution around 50/50 not only side to side and front to back but, the rotary is mounted lower to give you that handling like no other. You change that by putting in a piston engine, you just kill the whole soul of the car.

Maybe so, but what are the dimensions of an LS6? Its huge, and will sit a lot further ahead of the wheels, throwing balance more than what an additional rotor+ snails would. Weight is 1 factor, but where it's applied has a major effect as well. There is no disputing a rotary is the better fit for an RX-8.

I could totally fit a lawn mower motor lower and farther back. It must be the best.

Actually in the 8 you could get an LSX behind the front wheels. There some pictures floating around here someone of a car that did just that. Would the balance be off? Yes. Would it be thrown off with a 3-rotor 20B as well? Yes.

I still say this at the risk of people thinking I am pro-piston swapping on this car, which I am not. I honestly believe you should just go buy a Corvette if you want pushrod power. It's just tiring to hear the same old out-dated arguments when people believe LSX blocks are 800-lbs or something crazy.

LOL I could fit a 2-stroke 49cc in the transmission tunnel!

Thanks for the explanation Wafer. I think we high jacked the thread long enough. Back to the conversion discussion. :Peace:

What I get from this statement is:
The 20B can reliably make a lot more power and is a better platform to work with than the Renessis if you want a lot of power.
Doing a forced induction setup on the Renessis costs roughly 8 - 10k.
Doing a built 20B swap into the RX8 would cost roughly 8 - 10k.

If this is true, why would anyone choose forced induction in the Renessis over the 20B swap?

Doing a 20b swap the "right" way, is going to be at least 15k if you do all the work(even with our kit)...engine rebuild, fuel system, turbo, exhaust, management...it adds up...and it will require a lot more work, fabrication and cutting still. the purpose is to make it considerably less than the 30k people have been paying until now... not everyone wants/can go 20b..if what you want is 400whp or less..going 20b is a great waste...a renesis can do that reliably...if you want 500 plus...a 20b is the easier route and will be more reliable. They are different.

Chris

Did everyone just skip over what I was saying? Putting a piston engine in, no matter how light, will change the car completely. Its not the 50/50 distribution, its not the side/side distribution, it is more the top the bottom and where the weight is centered. The rotary, even if heavy, still sits lower and this gives the car that change-direction-on-demand that makes the car unique in its ability to handle. Putting in a 20b would still maintain this balance that you can never get from a v8 or v6. I believe if a kit was made so that you could basically, replace the front end of the car over a weekend, the swap kit would be worth every penny as you would have many that would just drop their car by and have it done as they do with the pettit if they are not mechanically inclined. The others that are, will just do it in their garage or take it to one that has the adequate tools and do it that way. Doing it this way would be better but, as we all know, would put the cost for making the kit high as you would be building the front half of the car. Perhaps a core charge like option could be done. Just some thoughts and see what you all think. Many of us would love to have a 20b, turbo or not, put in our cars, the easier, the better.

$15k is a wet dream

You can turbo the Renesis reliably for under $6,000

Swapping a 20B into the RX-8 for anything UNDER $20k is a dream.

Even with a reasonably priced swap kit, you still need a standalone EMS, custom wiring for the standalone, a 20B long block with manifold, the engine will need to be rebuilt, a full return style fuel system, turbocharger and external wastegate and blow-off valve, custom manifold/downpipe, upgraded clutch OR a Tremec T-56 transmission plus the custom fab work to install it, plus labor for a shop to install of this, and custom tuning. Add it up

And you could swap in a LS1/T-56 for under 8K. hrmmmmmmm think I'll go LS1

if you dont have the ecu handled you cant afford the swap..

does not matter what engine you put in it..

hey, but i dont know dick..

beers :beer:

We all prefer to know Jane any way .... :cwm27:

for anyone who does these types of swaps it's not about the money, if you're happy with a turbo Renesis then fine, but I wouldn't be. :dunno:

.

I would like to see that (for the price point you mentioned)

Not hard, buy a wrecked camaro, firebird, or transam, pull the engine tranny, and sell the rest of the car off.

If you don't buy a donor car for parts, you can buy an engine/tranny combo for around $2500-$3000.


Then its just custom work after that. You can do it for under what I said, you just have to be willin to work for it and do alot of work yourself.

^ yup....

I guess this 20b route could work out considering I always thought this swap would cost atleast $40,000 to do lol (for someone else to do all the work).

Will everyone just fuck off with the goddamn ls1,2,7,x engine swap? Most of us don't give a shit! The thread is for 2 0 B conversion. No more god damn details on weight, size and pistons, etc and etc, blah blah blah. I suggest if you don't have anything pertaining to the 2 0 B conversion, then stop typing. BTW Chris, make a subframe, new engine mounts, and the steering shaft extension using a stock rx7 transmission(first) and you'll see how many people will start buying it.

This discussion isn't about doing custom fabrication yourself. That negates a whole swap kit, doesn't it? A swap like that at a shop would set you back

Even if you could custom fab yourself, you still need a standalone EMS, completely new return style fuel system, custom headers/exhaust (you could make them I guess) and more. It would be tight making it under $10K

But I think this thread has gotten off-track enough...

A stock RX-8 tranny has been proven to handle a 20b longer than a stock FD tranny. I can get more info pertaining this but it was proven through several fd and rx-8 trannies.

Chris

only crazy people have 3 rotors.... :)

crazy people have all the fun too :)

i agree

Chris, this thread leads me to believe that you feel that the Renesis in current form is maxing out at 500 to mid 550's? Any plans to address that first and push it further or is that all she wrote?

o_O he has a dowel pinned motor with a custom upper intake manifold and his apex seals. Think that says he has done a bit but i think his point was that the cost goes way up trying to pass the 400 mark

got all that ecu stuff worked out?? :)


beers :beer:

By no means do I think that is all she wrote. If you have something to prove (like I did with the renesis) then the renesis will get you there. But not everything in life is a "pissing" match to see who can get the most out of what. Sometimes people want stock feel and still lots of power. The renesis is very comfortable at 400-4520whp...above that can be achieved with more/different fuel reliably without going to the extent I went with my intake mani etc, the reason I did that is because I wanted to make it as easy as I could for the engine to generate the power with the least amount of boost and the stock intake mani becomes a restriction after low 400whp levels which means you need more boost to make more power because it is choking you on the top end. My renesis ended up really reliable, I've driven it for over a year on a regular basis, many times 40miles to my place of work, and I was never worried it wouldn't get me there and of course each drive included several 19psi blasts through the gears. That is not the point, it was still behaving like any other 450-500whp 13b, and that is something not every rx8 owner wants, sometimes people just want a quiet easy going engine that still gets you the power without all the noise and drama, a 20b will give you 550whp at 10psi (holding) with the right setup and it comes at a max of 7.5psi (in the midrange, then it drops to about 3psi) from the factory so you are well within the engines reliable side. It will give you that power with no drama and it will spool the turbo faster than a renesis of the same horsepower.

Again, an engine swap is not for everyone...but if its what you are looking for then it should be easier than what it is now...a turbocharged 450whp renesis is not for everyone either, it is very "kick in the pants" as compared to other engines of the same power and some people love that very characteristic but others would rather have the power without the "impact"....as some call it :).

As for whether more than 550whp is possible on a renesis, I am sure it is. We are limited by the location/shape of the exhaust ports but that aside, I don't see why it wouldn't be doable. Is it something that would be fun on the street, of course, it would be a hoot...is it something you would want to drive to work every day, to some yes, to others not so much. You will probably have spent as much as it would have taken you to swap a single turbo 20b in with a kit like what I am suggesting by the time you reach that problem of going above 550whp on a renesis, specially if you are paying to get stuff fabricated/welded. I did it, and with good reason, I wanted to research the engine and that is fine, but some people aren't into that.

Best regards,

Chris

Still being left curious as to what the Renesis is capable of is exciting to me even when 500whp is already available:)

I had the greddy and custom turbo. I just want more so I am doing a 20b swap.

holy crap. mazda created a veyron eater. :lol:

lol i saw that but decided not to comment, you just need to start it and it would shred all the gears haha

Hey Angel, you want to chime in on the rx8's transmission...?

Yeahh 20b Power for few good mens!!!:ylsuper:
Looks for how its sound and burn the tires!!
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMXHhESP9Y0

It's available to any one who wants to spend as much money for a peaky on-off powerband and replace blown engines on a regular basis.

Honestly Chris I just dont think they'll be any profit for you. If the enthusiasts really want a 20b swap, they'll find a way to do it. If not, they'll just go FI.

As its already been stated; no matter how cheap your package will be, the customer would me dumping $10k or more from the getgo.

The idea sounds good on paper but I just dont think it'd be worth it

Ha ha, the only problem is that I don't know how many times chris replaced his engines:dunno:

Due to engine breakage?, 2 times....;) (I am not counting stupidty....read the last paragraph :/)

The first time it was probably a direct result of lack of proper tuning (no Wideband at the time) and the EMU which is what I was using at the time and it is known to vary the tune on its own. So there was nothing much I could do...cracked apex seal.

After that I was still on the stock seals at about 15-16psi on pump gas but with the Int-X, on engine this I pulled the 366whp at 13psi and later the 414whp run. One day after work I was low on fuel and I forgot and punched it while empty and it pulled air into the pump and it made a weird sound and then it backfired...I still drove it home but I could tell it was leaking a little bit of oil....right after it happened I noticed I was below the E on the fuel gauge and I stopped for fuel just down the road from where it happened....I had to add oil twice on the way home and it was hard to restart at the gas station so I knew something was wrong...cracked front iron and apex seal had gone :(

After this last break I installed the prototype apex seals, dowel pinned the engine and never had an engine failure due to boost/detonation or too much power. It did detonate a few times and ran lean a few times also with no issues and at high boost levels for about a year. The same engine also underwent the switch to E-85 and it was ran for more than a year more on the corn stuff until last winter.

The only reason I pulled the engine a 3rd time was because it sucked a piece of gasket paper that somehow ended up in the engine causing one rotor to read low on compression because the gasket paper got cut into a million pieces (almost a puree of rubber paper) and wedged the apex seals into their slots. This gasket paper was from the new custom intake manifold I had made over the winter, it would've ran on the same engine from more than 2 years but since I had to pull it, I went ahead and experimented bridging the irons and that is what is in there now...remind me never to use cheap gasket paper...anywhere...I now used aluminum gaskets that I made myself, problem solved ;)

Best regards,

Chris

Chris isn't the average 400+ HP Renesis wannabe. It takes a certain type of person to tune and maintain at this level and the majority of people here ain't it ... :pow:

Most of the FI converts on here are praying they don't blow because they can't afford a rebuild and if it happens they'll be selling everything off and going back to NA - read the stories, plenty of them posted here if you search.

Motivation is more of a problem...the PIA factor is huge.... ;)

Chris I hope you don't mind me putting my 2 cents in here.

I think a couple of you are getting the wrong idea here. I think a 20b kit would be an excellent idea and here's why. This kit wouldn't be for cost savings or a means of making a 20b swap cheaper in the context you would all be thinking. Believe me, Chris would make his money. This is a baller kit, pure and simple.

If you want a badass RX8 you go FI there's no debate about that. However, if you want a show stopping, pantie dropping car then you put a 20b in it.

The purpose of this kit would be to take all the major crap work out of the mix. The large amount of fabrication and time that is necesary to make this swap means serious time and effort not to mention the money.

A much smaller example would be the BHR ignition kit. Overpriced? I would argue not but we do make our money on it. So why do people buy it? Because we've managed to take all the guess work out of building your own. There have been several DIY types on this board who after spending a lot of time and money on their own kit finally either bought ours or stated they wish they had.

Our kit involved sourcing the coils for a good price, fabbing a bracket that fits the stock location and that looks good, fabbing brackets for the coils, building a plug and play harness and then finally making your own plug wires with the LS2 connectors.

Or you could just drop the cash and get it done for you and you can simply enjoy the benefits of the kit.

Same deal here. I'm sure there are people out there with the $$$ to drop and they would rather enjoy their 20b powered RX8 rather than slaving over their car and getting frustrated with the project.

i wouldnt say your coils are not overpriced at all..it transforms the car!!!
i bought a set of Okada plazmas for $750 plus delivery one burnt out first engine start, the 3 went by itself later on without the khs, dli2
so far ive got over 2k on your coils in 40+C very high humidity, and 9k each time no issues. anyways thats another thread?!
anyways Chris i dont know how well it will take off but it sounds great, in my opionion 2-4 rotors would be awsome,
if it was possible to make it handle all 3 styles you would be gold. but my suggestion is wait for a 16x?
because thats a route i might take in the future over the 2-4 rew's
anyways thats my 2 cents im fairly new to rotories only have about 5 year and 50k invenvested in them ive always been a big block dodge kind of guy, but im old school?!

I dunno what chick drops her panties when you tell them that you have a 20B in your RX8. Most of them will say.... "huh.. whats an RX8????"

You will most likely have dudes creaming their pants, which doesn't really appeal to me.

im sure the rumbling of a 20b will get the girls passenger seat....if u know what i mean...

That means your engine mounts need to be replaced.

My update thingy (for my email) does not work I guess... Honestly it's totally understandable (I can relate to my 350 a couple of years ago, long story). This is why it's good that you know how to fix the issue and not having to sell out because something won't work.:wink2:

I could not have said it any better, only a select few can deal with this type of responsibility and move on. There is just to many talker's and people who want to act like but really are not and simply should not be doing anything to a car that will require more than expected after any type of FI or swap to that of a NA car.:doh:

The ones that do pray for a healthy, long lasting engine after FI and can not afford to rebuild have plenty of excuses on why not to never ever go FI again and or blame it on the engine. I actually mentioned somewhere here that I never seen so many complaints about a particular engine.

I want a kit... Always wanted a 3 Rotor... :)

I don't know if the kit will meet you MPG requirements....:P LOL

Chris-

Hi my name is Churchill and I am located in MN...I am extremely interested in this kit. I have just received my 20b motor today and looking for such a kit as you mentioned. My tuner (RS Motors in Burnsville, MN) will be the one working on it. Please contact me as soon as you are convenient. Thank you

-Churchill