|
Couple of things ...............check for wear at sides of housings where the apex assist piece runs .... put straight edge across face to check no gaps . If it's not too bad ...you may get away with a hone . On the irons check the area that the corner seal passes over besides the exhaust ports isn't stepped . if you can feel it with your thumbnail .... no good.
|
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4876154)
Looks good. I know some people will say you need all new housings etc., but I would just verify everything is in spec and not damaged, buy a new closing kit and get it back together. Chances are something else will blow well before anything else is truly unusable... :cool: If your are iffy on that, you may look into resurfacing those housings. I got mine done at Freelance and they came back looking brand new for like $300.
|
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4876156)
Couple of things ...............check for wear at sides of housings where the apex assist piece runs .... put straight edge across face to check no gaps . If it's not too bad ...you may get away with a hone . On the irons check the area that the corner seal passes over besides the exhaust ports isn't stepped . if you can feel it with your thumbnail .... no good.
I checked housing inner surfaces w/a straight edge, and found no issue. Sent the housings to Goopy where they will also eval for refurbishing suitability for a successful re-build. Irons appear good as well, i.e. mirror smooth, no step anywhere. While, of course, w/it cracked open I'll replace anything deemed questionable, but I also consider that the engine was running fine..., well actually, until the water seal failed. |
What are causes for blown water seals ?
|
Originally Posted by Sydo
(Post 4876195)
What are causes for blown water seals ?
|
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4876177)
Brett, Thanks for the guidance. I checked housing inner surfaces w/a straight edge, and found no issue. Sent the housings to Goopy where they will also eval for refurbishing suitability for a successful re-build. Irons appear good as well, i.e. mirror smooth, no step anywhere. While, of course, w/it cracked open I'll replace anything deemed questionable, but I also consider that the engine was running fine..., well actually, until the water seal failed. For those shiny irons, you may want to look into the Lynn Hanover hand lapping method (posted somewhere over on nopistons). You essentially scuff up the surface of the iron using a kerosene or other lubricant and orbital hand sander and some light grit sandpaper. It dulls the finish without removing too much material (leaving the nitride layer). Supposed to help with the motor break-in and help retain lubrication on the side seals which is probably most important on a rx8 engine where the side seal goes over the exhaust port. Here is a picture of before and after of my irons if you are interested. I spent under $100 on this process which was better than $1500 for new irons. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2eb0e464dc.jpg |
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4876202)
Good move on the refurbishment. I am currently using the pineapple closing kit with the HD water seals and have had no issues. I used Vaseline to install my water seal though a lot of people use a type of sealant.
For those shiny irons, you may want to look into the Lynn Hanover hand lapping method... edit: Good to hear the vote of confidence on the Pineapple close kit & HD seals. |
Progress update...porting - To open exhaust port flow and avoid potential carbon build up :nono: shown in the first pic...I ported the mid-iron exhaust ports w/ the RB Street Port template. Then enlarged the template a bit and ported the end irons ~ 5% larger ...w/ attention to runner transition on all. Edit: ***It's imperative to avoid the coolant cavities w/in the irons. The Racing Beat porting template instructions provides some detail as to how to avoid them.*** https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...27fa75f940.jpg Carboned exhaust port... . https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...d6b78ac2b3.jpg RB template over OEM exhaust port https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2079d64b29.jpg Very poor OEM casting corners and transitions. Paid particular attention to upper narrow area, lower lip, and hidden transition into the runner. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...641bee87bd.jpg Was surprised to see how much larger the runner interface to the back of the exhaust port is. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...678d06a1d4.jpg Mid-iron nearly finished product https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...f6733347cd.jpg Enlarging the RB template to port the end-iron exhausts ~5% larger than the mid-iron exhausts. Objective here is twofold: 1) to further increase exhaust flow capacity, and 2) to bias a higher % of exhaust flow to the end iron exhausts ... and by default away from the Siamese port. |
Finished ported end irons, new (used) refurbished housings from Goopy, cleaned rotors, and my Atkins closing kit w/ a couple extras...
Not shown ... - Pineapple HD water seals - Pineapple 1x one-piece solid dowel, 1x one-piece hollow dowel - Turblown stud kit ...nearly ready to begin assembly. :) https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...293e6d2676.jpg Finished end-irons w/ exhausts "street ported" https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...1e23940baa.jpg Finished exhaust ported mid-iron https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...e0413181ad.jpg Cleaned rotors...ready for springs & seals https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...775848911f.jpg New used & refurbished housings from Goopy https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...4390ead2bb.jpg . https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...fee82fee5b.jpg Atkins closing kit w/ Pineapple HD water seals... |
Loving the detail of your updates my man, keep posting!
|
Everything is looking real good. The studs are a bit overkill, but overkill isn't a bad thing.
|
Originally Posted by RotaryMachineRx
(Post 4877408)
Loving the detail of your updates my man, keep posting!
|
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4877418)
Everything is looking real good. The studs are a bit overkill, but overkill isn't a bad thing.
|
This build thread is great. I’m considering going the same route you are with a rebuild with a street port and overbuilding the shit out of the engine and then throwing turblowns 7670 kit on there. So this has def helped me out a lot. Keep the pics and build coming! |
Originally Posted by Rkesh88
(Post 4877423)
This build thread is great. ... |
Love this build. Out of curiosity, why are you using the Pineapple water jacket seals instead of the Atkins seals?
|
Originally Posted by TomD_Cincy
(Post 4877427)
Love this build. Out of curiosity, why are you using the Pineapple water jacket seals instead of the Atkins seals?
|
Looking good, thank you for documenting all this, it's inspiring for those of us looking to take the plunge.
|
Get a professional to do your clearances
|
Originally Posted by skc
(Post 4877558)
Get a professional to do your clearances
|
Progress update: Spring & seal installation into rotors... Note: Take note of oil control & side spring installation orientation. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...5538501933.jpg Oil control ring installation... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...4d11eac23a.jpg Side spring & seal clearancing and installation... https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c228c61de9.jpg Front rotor front face corner & side spring and seal installation complete. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...83383b66ea.jpg corner & side spring & seal installation complete. |
Front iron, housing, and rotor assembly... https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...695608ef3f.jpg Front stationary gear installed into front iron https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2a9dea0301.jpg Front iron lubed https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...0347c4a0c7.jpg Inner & outer water seals into front housing. (Chose to go with the Pineapple HD water seals) https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...5dc8f2c4eb.jpg Mazda OEM springs & seals https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...9d576666c1.jpg Apex spring and seal installation :bluesuit: That feeling when the apex seal fully slides down and seats. ;) :uh: :sad: That feeling when it doesn't... https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...47e544eb52.jpg Apex springs & seals installed on front rotor |
E-shaft, intermediate iron, and Pineapple one piece dowel installations... https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...719c0b4544.jpg E-shaft installed... https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...003695abf1.jpg Intermediate iron assembly was pretty easy w/ an engine stand. Tilted the stand untlil the rear end of e-shaft was just above horizontal. Pulled the e-shaft out ~1" ...and d/t the stand angle it will stay out. Added the mid-iron, then rotated the engine stand vertical again (rear of engine assembly up), and everything seated up. intermediate iron installed w/ OEM 1/2 height dowels (hidden) https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...247a1e460.jpeg Half height dowels extracted, and one piece dowels installed via clamping the assembly, extracting the OEM 1/2 height dowels (w/out disturbing the assembly positioning), and inserting the full length dowels...bottom position first (which appears to be a hair tighter)...then the top dowel position. |
Rear housing, rotor, and apex seal installation... Note: Take care to align corner seals beforehand AND not to disturb them when placing the rotor on the assembly. If by Murphy's law a bottom corner seal is disturbed / turns slightly as it did on me, there's a fix. Rather than removing the rotor, etc I ground the edge of an old apex seal to a wedge, inserted it into the offending apex seal groove to realign the bottom corner seal. Then was able to install & fully seat the new springs and seal. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...277c998449.jpg rear rotor & housing installation https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...68167d8e31.jpg rear rotor apex spring & seal installation https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...af52ab3ae4.jpg rear rotor installation complete Note: Forgot to snap a pic of the rear rotor housing w/ water seals installed w/ hylomar and lower legs Permatex grey sealed. (Similar to first pic in post #123) |
Short block assembly almost complete... https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2ed68342f4.jpg Rear iron installation https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...60267b7fa8.jpg Turblown stud kit installation https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2bbc7b482b.jpg ...torqued to 46 ft lbs. EDIT: Returned later and retorqued the studs to 42#. See post #185. Note: Pleased w/the stud kit. Obvious quality and torquing precision improvement over OEM tension bolts. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...1ab56c6755.jpg Iron & housing assembly complete https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...f20f13a4ed.jpg Short block ...rear https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...2c03fc5a23.jpg Short block ...front Next up: front stack |
Engine re-build compression "chug" test...and checking end play... :) Edit: new link |
Did you use and sealant or hylomar on the legs of the rotor housing? Its not a huge deal if you didn't but you may get some oil weeping out of those areas. Not even 100% sure if that is done on the MSP engine.
Everything looks real good. The link appears to be broken. |
Any reasoning behind the turblown studs over goopy? And do the housings need to be machined to use the studs or is it just doweling?
|
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4877694)
Did you use and sealant or hylomar on the legs of the rotor housing? Its not a huge deal if you didn't but you may get some oil weeping out of those areas. Not even 100% sure if that is done on the MSP engine.
Everything looks real good. The link appears to be broken. I edited my above post with a new vid link. Hopefully that one works. |
Originally Posted by Rkesh88
(Post 4877696)
Any reasoning behind the turblown studs over goopy? And do the housings need to be machined to use the studs or is it just doweling?
No reason for the Turblown stud kit over Goopy per se. My objective was 1) to increase tensile strength, & 2) to increase lateral/ dynamic rigidity against engine flexing ... both w/out machining, if possible. Jonathan at Goopy was very informative, responsive, and helpful; but I'd already purchased the Turblown stud kit which met my objective. I installed Pineapples' full length dowels (1x solid, 1x drilled) to address the flex issue. Btw Rob at Pineapple was also extremely helpful, informative, and easy to work with as well. Regarding stud kits and machining generally.... some do, some don't. Thicker diameter kits require machining the housings and irons. IMO only a professional shop can machine them "to the tolerances required" to be effective. The kits sold with a drill bit are a joke IMO lol. If pro machine drilled and stud kitted... lateral / flex rigidity w/b increased also; so doweling wouldn't be required. |
Seems like the compression is fine from the video.
|
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4877711)
Seems like the compression is fine from the video.
|
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4877712)
SC95GT - Thanks. How's your re-build coming along? Are you still prepping the engine for installation ...or have you re-installed it?
Going to be turning it up to 25+ psi at the track tomorrow night. If I make it home in one piece it will be a miracle... |
Good luck stroker!
|
SXGT95, 25 psi :Eyecrazy: Good work and good luck! Post a link or some vids. Would love to see what an 8 pushing 25 psi can do. |
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4877735)
SXGT95, 25 psi :Eyecrazy: Good work and good luck! Post a link or some vids. Would love to see what an 8 pushing 25 psi can do. |
In the video where you are checking the "end-play or end float", you should have the flywheel nut and stack test fitted first. End play should be like 0.020-0.035" (if I remember correctly) and in the video it seems like your moving the e-shaft like 0.25-0.50". You should only be able to grab the flywheel and make a slight tick as you move it inward and outward. It should be almost impossible to see and only be able to hear the slight tick as its moved in an out...
I'm sure you already know this, just making sure its not an oversight.... |
Yes, you're right. I'm working thru that now. With flywheel, nut and front stack installed the e-shaft float appears tight. When I remove the front bolt the end float appears correct. I think the tightness m/h to do with the front pin not fully seating. Will continue with it tomorrow... |
Originally Posted by Rkesh88
(Post 4877736)
I’m more excited to see what this renesis will do over the rew. We know the rew will blow minds but seeing a well sorted renesis will be even better. Maybe the voodoo magic tune will show us how well a built renny will do |
Progress update:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...0869be7f17.jpg Little help from my son :-) https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...ca3abdff96.jpg Front stack assembly... https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c20c13d899.jpg Front stack assembly... https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...0307160516.jpg End float (engine rear up) 7.38mm https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c21b7ad6fc.jpg End float (engine rear down) 7.43mm Resulting end float measurment is 0.05 mm ...(w/in acceptable range of 0.04-0.07) :jump: |
Knock, knock...
|
Yup that looks/sounds correct. I used to check it with a dial gauge, but after a few rebuilds you can just "feel" it (not recommended).
|
Progress update: Finally fully sealed e-mani. to the block... - Purchased a replacement e-mani gasket, and pleasantly found it was significantly thicker, i.e .more metal accordion folds, than the OEM gasket, which worked to my benefit. - Further modified custom nuts - Re-tapped problem stud positions on irons... and nuts - Torqued all nuts (I could get a torque wrench on) to spec., 25 ft lbs, and others w/ equal force. .***NOTE:...Properly/ fully sealing the RX8Perf exhaust manifold to the block m/h been the most difficult challenge of the entire build. Soooo much easier with engine out of the car Note: I don't believe the replacement seal was thicker than standard. Conversely, I believe that my previous gasket replaced when my reman was installed was a used gasket and thinner than standard. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...1beb4d6f88.jpg E-mani installed https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...438502d7be.jpg - Used hemostats to fit washers onto difficult stud positions (to avoid cylindrical portion of nut seating into the manifold back-plate stud holes) - Then installed custom fabricated nuts ...backwards |
sweet!
beers :beer: |
She's back in the stable. My rebuilt engine is ready for reinstall...just awaiting delivery of a new turbine thermal cover, and the time / opportunity for reinstall... https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...50438b7252.jpg Back in the stable... https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...7832480ed4.jpg ...front view https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c4ae9c1386.jpg ...passenger-side view ...w/ mani & turbo installed https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...1656a0c6d7.jpg ...rear view https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c4a4bec769.jpg ...driver-side view |
Can I ask what the advantage was of using the stud kit instead of the factory bolts when rebuilding your engine?
I could see an advantage if the studs went right through the front plate as well, but they don't seem to do that. Also why did you choose the Pineapple waterseals over the Atkins ones in the end, was there much difference between the two types? Thanks, looks like you are going well. |
Originally Posted by Rotaman
(Post 4878153)
Can I ask what the advantage was of using the stud kit instead of the factory bolts when rebuilding your engine?
I could see an advantage if the studs went right through the front plate as well, but they don't seem to do that. Also why did you choose the Pineapple waterseals over the Atkins ones in the end, was there much difference between the two types? Thanks, looks like you are going well. The studs are stronger and a greater diameter than the factory bolts. It helps keep the motor from twisting/bulging under heavy loads. Some say the are not needed until after you pass the 600 rwhp mark, but it never hurts to have the added strength. I have used both Pineapple and Atkins water seals. Pineapple call theirs "Heavy Duty" and are a brown color. Atkins are black and don't have any specific designation. Honestly, other than the color, they look and feel identical. I can't vouch for the actual materials that make up each seal. My guess is no matter how "heavy duty" the seal is that enough heat will blow either. Other people may have a different take on this, or have more knowledge on these questions. |
Originally Posted by Rotaman
(Post 4878153)
Can I ask what the advantage was of using the stud kit instead of the factory bolts when rebuilding your engine?
I could see an advantage if the studs went right through the front plate as well, but they don't seem to do that. Also why did you choose the Pineapple waterseals over the Atkins ones in the end, was there much difference between the two types? Thanks, looks like you are going well.
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4877706)
RK88 - No reason for the Turblown stud kit over Goopy per se. My objective was 1) to increase tensile strength, & 2) to increase lateral/ dynamic rigidity against engine flexing ... both w/out machining, if possible.... I installed Pineapples' full length dowels (1x solid, 1x drilled) to address the flex issue. ... Regarding stud kits and machining generally.... some do, some don't. Thicker diameter kits require machining the housings and irons. IMO only a professional shop can machine them "to the tolerances required" to be effective. The kits sold with a drill bit are a joke IMO lol. If pro machine drilled and stud kitted... lateral / flex rigidity w/b increased also; so doweling wouldn't be required. See also Stroker's comment above. My engine blew a water seal the beginning of a WOT run when I'd been meticulous about cooling, monitoring temps, and "know" that it had not seen elevated temps...certainly since being boosted. But it was a reman'd engine w/ ~70k mi. So, I believe it failed d/t age / miles & dynamic twist / flex. They say not to boost a high mileage engine. They're right. :sad: So, I installed the studs for the reasons indicated above: ~0.7mm thicker (but w/out requiring machining), stronger, and provide elevated & more precise torquing for increased tensile strength. Since I did not install a stud kit requiring iron & housing machining...I also installed Pineapple's 1-piece dowels to increase lateral rigidity against the dynamic flex. I firmly believe, implemented together, these will yield a stronger engine. By how much? :dunno: ...but worth doing w/ engine already apart. Lol...I completely concur w/ Stroker regarding the choice of the Pineapple seals over the Atkins. End of the day...couldn't tell much difference & stopped short of investigating materials, etc. So, basically installed the Pineapples based on other forum member's experience / recommendation, and the fact that they "market" to HD seals & other components. As my tuner, Brettus, says,"Any bad detonation will kill your engine regardless of what you do ... So the key is ...not to detonate." So, we're talking "margins" here...none of this will sustain abuse, i.e. severe over heating or detonation. :nono: However, w/ thoughtful tuning, cooling, & monitoring I'm hopeful will fair better against any light "incidents" and provide increased longevity. :) Time will tell. :fingersx: |
When I rebuilt I also went with billet studs and extra dowels to reduce flex. I will be installing the supercharger soon and plan to run around 12 psi.
|
Originally Posted by skc
(Post 4878210)
When I rebuilt I also went with billet studs and extra dowels to reduce flex. I will be installing the supercharger soon and plan to run around 12 psi.
|
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:15 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands