Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4871916)
So, I can't say at what RPM peak is achieved. .
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I ran my Greddy for a year around 12-13psi with no issues. I use RON 98 rated gas (I think E30 has RON 100 rating), and kept an eye on AFRs every now and then during WOT pulls. With your larger turbine housing, your setup will be much happier/safer than a Greddy T25 housing at 10+psi, as there's less exhaust manifold back-pressure hammering the engine.
I've heard that running Ethanol blends on piston engines dilutes the oil, so more frequent oil changes are required in order to avoid spinning a bearing. Not sure if more frequent oil changes are required with rotaries on ethanol, given that oil in the combustion chamber is burned. |
Originally Posted by JimmyBlack
(Post 4871969)
I ran my Greddy for a year around 12-13psi with no issues. I use RON 98 rated gas (I think E30 has RON 100 rating), and kept an eye on AFRs every now and then during WOT pulls. With your larger turbine housing, your setup will be much happier/safer than a Greddy T25 housing at 10+psi, as there's less exhaust manifold back-pressure hammering the engine.
I've heard that running Ethanol blends on piston engines dilutes the oil, so more frequent oil changes are required in order to avoid spinning a bearing. Not sure if more frequent oil changes are required with rotaries on ethanol, given that oil in the combustion chamber is burned. Re the oil ... the guys at HPR showed me the oil from a high power rotary that was running E85 .... It smelt like a wild night on the rum ! |
3rd gear pull this morning @ peak psi 10.4. Pulls hard from ~3k on... :)
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...0d6d33a6ca.png |
Are you running the stock timing on the intake valves, or have any disabled? It looks like you are hitting an airflow limit around 6800-7200RPM, then it suddenly clears up and power ramps again.
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Originally Posted by furansu
(Post 4872041)
Are you running the stock timing on the intake valves, or have any disabled? It looks like you are hitting an airflow limit around 6800-7200RPM, then it suddenly clears up and power ramps again.
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It'll be interesting to see what he says. The VDI valve normally engages at 7250RPM, fully possible the valve actuation need adjustment given the significant gains in airflow from the turbocharger. You could set the VDI valve actuation window down a few thousand RPM and see if you pickup or lose power there, paying close attention to AFR to assure it doesn't go too lean (add a bit of fuel just before the valve window in the tables to mitigate the 'lean surge' of the valve. You could do the same with the Aux ports to see if they pickup power at a lower RPM now.
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I like to deactivate the VDI altogether . It's an NA valve only and with FI it tends to just create a power drop as it opens but has no other effect - positive or negative.
The APV valve activation I set coming in a few hundred rpm earlier . The ideal activation point is largely dependent on the rate of acceleration of the engine in the gear you are testing . This is due to the relatively slow motion of the valve . The faster the engine is accelerating , the sooner you want to activate the APV . Unfortunately once you go FI acceleration rates are almost double that of NA and finding an activation point that is ideal for each gear is impossible with the control we have. What you see above in Curtis's VD is pretty typical . A slight drop as the APV opens then a bit of a surge in power. VD does tend to exagerate these things though unfortunately . A real dyno it would look better than above in midrange but with a lower peak. |
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4872044)
Furansu, :dunno: Good question...I also noticed the consistent "rise" ~7.2-3k in my dynos, just after the "limit" you identified. Actually seems ... a restriction from ~5.8k - 7.2k. My presumption w/b having to do w/ opening of Aux Intake ports..., but intended to discuss it w/ Brett who's doing my tuning today. W/b nice to realize a bit more torque thru that range. :)
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4872072)
It's not just the APV doing that . It's also the slight dropoff in boost as rpms rise plus increased backpressure at the turbine. Lots of factors really . The upturn at the end could also just be an anomaly .... Sometimes I just have to put things down to 'something weird' happened as it hurts my brain trying to dig any deeper ...lol
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Wow, great thread man and thanks for the shout out, glad my thread could be of any assistance at all. Very methodical build, great job planning things out and dealing with the issues as they happened.
Your numbers look promising and its good to finally see a well documented build with this turbo kit as I have always said that if I was to do it again I would go with this kit. Also great job not rushing into things and allowing Brett to dial that tune in, I believe that's the biggest factor in going FI with the 8 and the main reason I've managed to get nearly 60,000kms and 8 years with my turbo setup. Keep us posted! |
Originally Posted by RotaryMachineRx
(Post 4872092)
Wow, great thread man and thanks for the shout out, glad my thread could be of any assistance at all. Very methodical build, great job planning things out and dealing with the issues as they happened.
Your numbers look promising and its good to finally see a well documented build with this turbo kit as I have always said that if I was to do it again I would go with this kit. Also great job not rushing into things and allowing Brett to dial that tune in, I believe that's the biggest factor in going FI with the 8 and the main reason I've managed to get nearly 60,000kms and 8 years with my turbo setup. Keep us posted! As I've stated I'm happy w/ progress to date and my #s, and will likely enjoy it as is ...for a bit, while taking care of a few loose ends, e.g. front under-tray, ducting, aesthetics, etc.; as I consider if I'm willing to accept the constraints as well as the benefits of going E30. Tuning...yes, I've seen the tuning options over the years...and am thankful for a knowledgeable, experienced, amiable guy like Brett to collaborate w/ for tuning. |
About 1k miles in and all is well. I believe I've the EBC fairly well dialed in for a low and high setting. Enjoying relearning to drive her in the cool weather (50s & 60s F). Just hate that' its been raining lately. :yelrotflm:) |
Quick update: Here's a screen shot from my AEM Failsafe gauge of a 2nd, 3rd, 4th gear (as far as I was comfortable) WOT pull. A little context:
That said targeting 10 psi... today my system generates:
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...0e4c8e25dc.png |
Looking good !
So in 3rd gear from a low rpm start .... at what rpm do you see 10psi ? |
Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4872949)
Looking good !
So in 3rd gear from a low rpm start .... at what rpm do you see 10psi ? https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...0d6d33a6ca.png |
Well, had a bit of a scare yesterday. Took the 8 for a drive to do some M/E and AEM logging. :ylsuper: During a 2nd gear WOT heard a pop and saw a plume of white smoke in the rear view. Backed off, checked gauges, all good ...,a few seconds later coolant temp alarm goes off (215F). :sad: I cruise low rpm, low load ~1/2 mile, coolant temp drops. I pull over to side of the road, inspect, & find coolant mist all over rear bumper. Get back in and low coolant cel is lit. :sweatdrop :mad: Wifey brings me a couple gallons of water. I start the engine and start filling w/ water, and its leaking out underneath...somewhere on the driver side of sump. So, I'm on the side of the road, no jack stands, no tools... so get her towed to the house, and enjoy an evening considering the worst case scenarios caused by this evenings activity. :( Reach out to Brett for a diagnostic assist. He basically says, "Chill mate, don't jump to conclusions, find the leak". Good advice. :lol2: So, today, I put her on stands, and start filling coolant and pretty quickly find an 1 1/2" gash in the heater hose that runs down along the driver side of the engine. :Freak_ani Cut, refit the hose, refill w/ coolant, and go for a spin. All good. Whew. :rofl: :)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...16c9870943.jpg |
if this is the one just under the master cylinder, and it failed replace all your coolant hoses!
do not ask me how i know. I am enjoying this thread.. beers :beer: |
I had the exact same thing happen about 6-12 months ago. I forgot to secure the lower radiator hose back from my turbo manifold and it slowly melted until I had steam shooting under my car. Luckily I caught it before it was gushing. Shit happens, you should be good to go.
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Originally Posted by swoope
(Post 4873043)
if this is the one just under the master cylinder, and it failed replace all your coolant hoses!
do not ask me how i know. I am enjoying this thread.. beers :beer: |
Well, as committed... the good, bad, this is the ugly. I took the car out Mon. evening ...simple cruise...think I hit 1 psi. After driving ~ 5 mi I stopped for gas. After filling up she wouldn't start. Multiple attempts...cranked strong, but would not start. Thought to let the engine cool. After some time while waiting I looked underneath and saw a pool of coolant generally...under manifold area (recall I still have the ex mani leak). So, popped the coolant cap and was topping it up. As I continued to periodically crank the engine I could see wafs of smoke emanating from the coolant overfill bottle coinciding w/ when the engine was being cranked. After ~an hr of cranking, waiting, and getting jumps...finally got her started... white smoke billowing everywhere, and was able to drive directly home.
Since then she starts, but has rough idle and fair amount of white smoke. So, I'm reasonably confident, unfortunately, that whatever happened last Sat ruptured the coolant o-ring in the rotor 2 housing. https://www.rx8club.com/images/smilies/sad.gif I was logging last Sat when the initial "event" happened and AFRs repeatedly drove to ~10.6 in boost, coolant and oil temps were ~205F and 190F, respectively. After the event coolant climbed past my alarm threshold (215F) to 220F before dropping back to normal range. So, given that data my presumption is this was simply the product of boosting a 65k mile reman'd non-built engine, which btw I expected to "go"..., but not so soon. So, currently considering options, cost, and time frames for next steps... |
This is really bad luck jcb .... Glad you are able to be up front about it and let people know what happened.
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So sad to see that the engine died.
Good opportunity to rebuild with better seals, dowelling, billet studs, porting, etc |
That really sucks.
If it really is just a cooling seal and no damage was done to the housings or plates, you could get another closing kit and some better apex seals for like $400-500 and rebuild it yourself (assuming all other components are in good shape).. I rebuilt mine by watching two jobbers from Australia on YouTube. Motor came out fine. |
Only issue with that is that almost every engine that is ever pulled apart at any more than token mileage has worn out housings.
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Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4873628)
That really sucks.
If it really is just a cooling seal and no damage was done to the housings or plates, you could get another closing kit and some better apex seals for like $400-500 and rebuild it yourself (assuming all other components are in good shape).. I rebuilt mine by watching two jobbers from Australia on YouTube. Motor came out fine. |
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4873572)
Well, as committed... the good, bad, this is the ugly. I took the car out Mon. evening ...simple cruise...think I hit 1 psi. After driving ~ 5 mi I stopped for gas. After filling up she wouldn't start. Multiple attempts...cranked strong, but would not start. Thought to let the engine cool. After some time while waiting I looked underneath and saw a pool of coolant generally...under manifold area (recall I still have the ex mani leak). So, popped the coolant cap and was topping it up. As I continued to periodically crank the engine I could see wafs of smoke emanating from the coolant overfill bottle coinciding w/ when the engine was being cranked. After ~an hr of cranking, waiting, and getting jumps...finally got her started... white smoke billowing everywhere, and was able to drive directly home. Since...she starts, but has rough idle and fair amount of white smoke. So, I'm reasonably confident, unfortunately, that whatever happened last Sat ruptured the coolant o-ring in the rotor 2 housing. :sad: I was logging last Sat when the initial "event" happened and AFRs repeatedly drove to ~10.6 in boost, coolant and oil temps were ~205F and 190F, respectively. After the event coolant climbed past my alarm threshold (215F) to 220F before dropping back to normal range. So, given that data my presumption is this was simply the product of boosting a 65k mile reman'd non-built engine, which btw I expected to "go"..., but not so soon. So, currently considering options, cost, and time frames for next steps... not sure how i am going to proceed. beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by swoope
(Post 4873777)
if it helps, and i know it doesnt. :) i am in the same boat, but i managed to do it without boost..
not sure how i am going to proceed. beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4873628)
That really sucks.
If it really is just a cooling seal and no damage was done to the housings or plates, you could get another closing kit and some better apex seals for like $400-500 and rebuild it yourself (assuming all other components are in good shape).. I rebuilt mine by watching two jobbers from Australia on YouTube. Motor came out fine. |
What are you saying ?
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Originally Posted by Brettus
(Post 4873981)
What are you saying ?
I'm taking the red pill. :cool: Much to learn... much to be done. More to come... |
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4874236)
"You take the blue pill—the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes" - Morpheus I'm taking the red pill. :cool: Much to learn... much to be done. More to come... beers :beer: |
Have you tried any sealant? Probably will not work ( although I have seen it work) but at this point you have nothing to loose? very nice write up and clean install. dont forget if your coolant temp becomes a problem a secondary radiator works wonders. |
Originally Posted by swoope
(Post 4874271)
wish you were closer!
beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 4874281)
Have you tried any sealant? Probably will not work ( although I have seen it work) but at this point you have nothing to loose? very nice write up and clean install. dont forget if your coolant temp becomes a problem a secondary radiator works wonders. Conversely, hopefully w/ no or minimal damage to housings and plates :fingersx: this is a good opportunity to learn and sufficiently "harden" the engine to handle the power the "Rock's cooking" :cool: Ideally, I intend to rebuild this engine w/ all new seals, a street port, dowells, a stud kit, and likely softer apex seals. THEN, FINALLY get my ex mani sealed. :yelrotflm We'll see how it goes... more to come... |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 4874281)
Have you tried any sealant? Probably will not work ( although I have seen it work) but at this point you have nothing to loose? very nice write up and clean install. dont forget if your coolant temp becomes a problem a secondary radiator works wonders. check your pm! going to be at RR this weekend. beers :beer: |
Call Cam concerning sealants. but I do understand your reluctance. xing fingers for you man |
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4874290)
OD, Appreciate it... and thanks for the suggestion. No, I haven't tried a sealant. I would have zero confidence a sealant would hold on a boosted engine, and wouldn't want to introduce a sealant essentially to the combustion chamber, or chance clogging coolant passages. Conversely, hopefully w/ no or minimal damage to housings and plates :fingersx: this is a good opportunity to learn and sufficiently "harden" the engine to handle the power the "Rock's cooking" :cool: Ideally, I intend to rebuild this engine w/ all new seals, a street port, dowells, a stud kit, and likely softer apex seals. THEN, FINALLY get my ex mani sealed. :yelrotflm We'll see how it goes... more to come... https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...7e0b1e485a.jpg beers :beer: |
Whoa.....! That’s nasty. sorry to derail the thread. i did have an engine that was having air bubbles in the coolant...( wasn’t blowing the usual white smoke... yet) and I called cam. he suggested a particular sealant. It worked for me and he told me if it didn’t then no harm done...engine had to be torn down anyway. So I gave it a shot. The op is going to really enjoy a properly built engine for FI. enjoy your adventure...you will learn a lot. Will follow...great thread. |
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Pulled my engine out this weekend as well . Are you going REW or just a refresh?
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Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4874844)
Pulled my engine out this weekend as well . Are you going REW or just a refresh?
All the best to you. What's your time frame? |
Originally Posted by olddragger
(Post 4874350)
Whoa.....! That’s nasty. sorry to derail the thread. i did have an engine that was having air bubbles in the coolant...( wasn’t blowing the usual white smoke... yet) and I called cam. he suggested a particular sealant. It worked for me and he told me if it didn’t then no harm done...engine had to be torn down anyway. So I gave it a shot. The op is going to really enjoy a properly built engine for FI. enjoy your adventure...you will learn a lot. Will follow...great thread. carry on with the thread, sorry. beers :beer: |
Engine's out. Let the fun begin... :)
cant wait to see where the leak is!! beers :beer: |
Originally Posted by jcbrx8
(Post 4874847)
SC95GT, I'm rebuilding my 13B rene, not doing a REW swap. I've not investigated it much personally, but understand that a REW swap is significantly more costly. All the best to you. What's your time frame? |
Originally Posted by strokercharged95gt
(Post 4875135)
Bolting on the new counterweight, flywheel, twin disc clutch tomorrow then resealing the front cover and oil pan, etc. I'll be dropping the motor back in this weekend. Good luck on the rebuild.
Thanks! I've been covered w/ work. Expecting to make some progress during time off over Thanksgiving. Next up...stripping auxiliary items, and cracking the block. |
Quick progress update: engine stripped down to short block and cracking the keg.
Note: Can see the damaged rear rotor / end iron side water seal (in last pic) in the area of the exhaust chamber. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...548f2ec6a2.jpg . https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...ef6d8e8067.jpg . https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...259ea8a23c.jpg . https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...bd3fb874f9.jpg . https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...8e9f62f045.jpg . |
Short block disassembly:
Note: Can see the damaged rear rotor / center iron side water seal (in the 4th pic) in the area of the exhaust chamber. https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...ab793aa994.jpg . https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...ea28f8116a.jpg . https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...ddbc4a8e23.jpg . https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...b9d30cc22c.jpg Note: Water seal seen here on the rear rotor / center iron side destroyed around the perimeter of the exhaust phase. . https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...e0e4a4a033.jpg . https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...d34d69a2ab.jpg |
- The culprit, blown water seal
- rotor 1 & 2 spring and seal disassembly - rotors & housings cleaning... https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...863fa184cf.jpg . https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...03b6d56f3b.jpg . https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...650cd8b12a.jpg . https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...749414e6ee.jpg . https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...e6dd58f810.jpg . https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...b7095145fa.jpg . https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...75cac6b455.jpg . https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...f1227a116a.jpg . https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...5df5c3a83a.jpg . https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...c0a74c8371.jpg . https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...90fb2c359b.jpg Note: Old housings showing scoring around the leading plug holes. These were NOT reused in my rebuild. . https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...47ce565876.jpg |
Looks good. I know some people will say you need all new housings etc., but I would just verify everything is in spec and not damaged, buy a new closing kit and get it back together. Chances are something else will blow well before anything else is truly unusable... :cool: If your are iffy on that, you may look into resurfacing those housings. I got mine done at Freelance and they came back looking brand new for like $300.
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