Bridgeported engine results - Page 2 - RX8Club.com

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Bridgeported engine results

Old 07-08-2011, 08:29 AM
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Short of street driven reliability questions (which I don't expect from you guys), you and BDC are taking all of the guess work out for the rest of us that may not have the budget to dive into what is pretty much un-charted territory.

I'm excited to see gains and more excited to see some of the theories discussed over the past few years put to work.

Keep up the good work and thank you for sharing.
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:47 AM
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Some additional info that should help to clear things up a bit. There are four threads of recent for each of these efforts plus an additional one:

1. Street Port vs. Stock started by Brian Cain. This was us under the radar. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/bdc-street-port-vs-stock-port-dyno-comparison-216762/

2. 233 Mystery thread which was the Star Mazda engine. This has become a convoluted thread: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/233-rwhp-dyno-sheet-218322/

3. Bridge Results (this thread).

4. On the horizon/future PPort project: https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/horizon-peripheral-renesis-results-219339/

All of these are really apple to apple comparsions that will be duplicated (except the PPort because we are just playing around to see what it does). All use the same or very close to the same tune with the same Lambda values, same hearders, same injectors, same dyno, same spec race fuel (Sunoco GTX260), same tire pressures, same drivetrain temperatures, near same oil temps at the dyno, same gear (4th) although we sometimes pull 5th just to see the a higher dyno number and get a kick out of it (we post all dyno numbers in 4th gear and have found 5th to make approx 2-4hp more than 4th). All dyno pulls are STD corrected. Clean -11 NGK race plugs, same Mazdaspeed/AEM modified intake with a pretty clean air filter, same upper and lower intake, same mufflers, etc. Getting the picture folks? We try and take out as much variation as we can and I try and not to come to any conclusions about power or longevity until we run these things a few times.

Since I'm on a roll and my 3rd cup of coffee---I betcha we have over 500 pulls on these stupid engines over the past few years. Our good friend Pete Cozzolino of Cozzolino Motorsports in Indianapolis, IN has given us carte blance to use his shop and dyno and we often get into his shop without anyone being there and perform our testing and recording. He gave me keys to his shop a few years ago and we can get in and out of there in about 90 minutes (trailer unload to trailer load) and make a few dozen pulls. I've said this before and will offer it to interested readers again--the biggest variation in recording power is heat in the engine and drivetrain. The more heat you have the higher numbers you see. We will run pull after pull to get heat in the drivetrain as measured at the differential. The biggest part of this 90 minutes is getting heat in the differential. Usually takes a dozen pulls. We will usually record these pulls to watch the power curve (and peak numbers) inch up to what ends up being a hot diffential and the peak numbers. They end up leveling off and usually you see about 1 hp difference which is inside about 1/2 of a % which is pretty damn good enough in my book. Sometimes we see two hp (less than 1%) which again is good enough for me. I have to think that the dyno is not much more accurate than 99% so our duplicate or near duplicated numbers are good enough for me.

A word of advise if your chasing the biggest number you can at the dyno: Get heat in your drivetrain. Inflated tire pressures don't do anything from our testing. We run tire pressures as if we were on track (about 31 or 32 for the current Pirelli radial slicks we run in World Challenge). Higher for the Grand-Am Hoosier and/or R6 Hoosier compound. I usally start watching for repetative dyno numbers when the diff is over 130F and the oil is around 210F. 220F for us will see the highest numbers by approx 1 hp but that is pretty hot. Once these things start getting hot it takes longer to cool them down. Our big giant C&R custom dual pass fatty thick radiator and custom ducting will allow the water to hover just over our 185F water thermostat. Sometimes when the oil is about 215F or so the water temp will creep to 190F but increases in heat like this are pretty normal in all engines.

Eric Meyer boy scout and dyno **** comments: Bring your own fire extinguisher and man it. Make sure others know where it is. If the dyno shop has one (or two), locate them and point them out to your buddies and strangers. You can't be too safe. Recheck the straps that hold your car down or ask the operator to recheck them after a few pulls. Often they will loosen up and you can get another click or two in the rachet straps. Bring a flashlight and peak under the car a few times during your visit. Have a buddy perform this role if your in the car pushing the throttle. Have him check the straps and shine the light into the engine bay to watch for any wackiness---especially if your engine is newly installed. Use the same octane gas, the same premix % and check your fluids before and after. I would go as far as using new or very clean plugs. Dirty plugs on these things is pretty dramatic in our testing. Clean or use a new air filter. Have someone man the fans at the front of the car. I purchased 3 big azz fans like those used to dry out carpet if your basement was flooded. One stays on the front water radiator on full. One for the passenger side that runs under the car and blows across the exhaust. One aimed or managed on the drivers side oil cooler while watching/managing our oil temps. Oil temps are (for us) the largest variation when the drive train is hot. We run a differential cooler and this will stabilize the diff temp to around 140-145F I think. Engine oil temp then becomes the variation. As mentioned above, higher oil temps will see higher numbers. We run plain ole' 5w-30 non synthetic/buy a 5 qt and get a free cheapie oil filter. I don't do oil analysis and think it's totally stupid and worthless. Yes you can see what it says but nobody does anything about it. It has been my experience that those high end serious engine builders that do this are looking for specific metals so they car tear down and go specifically to a component to furthur look for wear. I don't know any Road Race pro teams that do this. Why the crazies on that oil thread do that is beyond me because you can't do anything about it. We change our oil and filter after each outing and it comes out like new. About every 5 hours or so. Clean oil is better than expensive oil in my book. $25 bucks for oil and an hour of labor is cheap insurance. We have never, ever, ever, ever, ever had an oil related failure and I've NEVER seen any bearing wear---ever. This with either a balanced assembly or a stocker (Brian Cain plug to get your rotating assembly balanced at a very fair price along with his fantastic feedback). High rpms on a stock motor will see some rotor tip wear on the irons. We see about nil when the assembly is balanced. Anything over 9,000 on a stock motor appears to show this iron wear compared to 8,500 (where I recommend shifting at because there is no power above that). For those that enjoy reading my coffee induced long *** posts, iron wear = less compression = less power. Most all high end engine builders will start a build with BRAND NEW irons and housings. They will make about 1 or 2 hp more than used ones. High mileage street engines don't make/can't make the power we see compared to the new stuff or like new stuff we use. Pretty simple stuff---just like piston motors. Google piston engine performance builds and there are so many similar concepts in engine builds you'll understand why we do what we do. Quite honestly new oil pumps, chains, seals, oil rings and such as so standard it's a joke not to go this route. I have found the RX-8 market to be a "cheaper" customer/owner and you'd be shocked how few people will build engines this way. I'm certain that those guys that are touted as godlike and the gurus of rotary engine building do the same exact crap that we do. No super secret tricks that make 10 hp. They don't exist. They don't exist. They don't exist. All stock race motors with headers on a dynojet make approx 210-215 hp. Period. The newer series II make about 2 hp more'ish according to a very reputable engine builder that owns an engine dyno and builds many of these for the open wheel Star Mazda market. Note: these stock engines running Motec on .90 Lambda and race gas make approx 270 flywheel and two more for the newer production engines.

Gotta go. Meyer out.
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:57 AM
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Once again, Eric, I love your attention to detail and methodical approach to r&d. That's the way it always ought to be.

When are you releasing hp figures and dyno data to the public? Was that what was happening in August?

Paul.
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Old 07-08-2011, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Mazmart View Post
Once again, Eric, I love your attention to detail and methodical approach to r&d. That's the way it always ought to be.

When are you releasing hp figures and dyno data to the public? Was that what was happening in August?

Paul.
Hey Paul,

I'll scrounge up some Bridge numbers. Brian did the bridge. Interesting shape of the curve. I think I have a 231 number printed out. 4th gear. Cleanest curve I could find with a smoothing of 5.

August is the test of a PPort motor (assuming we can get a crazy header and motor mount built). That is a DIFFERENT thread (see above).
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Old 07-08-2011, 11:53 AM
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with the increased breathability of the engine (and more fuel?) are yall thinking that the charge temperatures are dropping and this may be affecting the metal temperatures?
Hince a cooler combustion chamber could also help with the side seal spring issue?
I have often thought that the side seals are too close to the combustion face and this bridgement may end up being a point in which some cooling could occur?
I do wonder how the exhaust ports are handling the increased flow? Maybe there is more there than was once believed?
Leaving PP out of this discussion totally.

I think too damn much.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
with the increased breathability of the engine (and more fuel?) are yall thinking that the charge temperatures are dropping and this may be affecting the metal temperatures?
Hince a cooler combustion chamber could also help with the side seal spring issue?
I have often thought that the side seals are too close to the combustion face and this bridgement may end up being a point in which some cooling could occur?
I do wonder how the exhaust ports are handling the increased flow? Maybe there is more there than was once believed?
Leaving PP out of this discussion totally.

I think too damn much.
The charge temp doesn't mean jack diddly. It is what it is. Put a temp sensor fore and aft of some point on the lower and measure it. I strongly suspect that you can't influence it enough to make any difference. You yourself know that the outside of the intake manifolds are hotter than the ambient air entering the system and measured at the air intake sensor. You have said that several times. You can't change/lower this temp unless you install a super refrigerator in the car or inject some type of gas/other that I'm not going to address because that's not part of a normally aspirated car engine and that's the path I'm headed down. I am not and do not claim to be an expert in water or meth or cocaine or soda pop injection so nobody ask me any of this crap.

The EGT's are the exact same and a little higher and if you think about it they should be HIGHER Denny. C'mon man. Start thinking before you post this stuff. Your a smart dude. More power = more heat. Everybody has seen this time after time after time and it's a well known concept in every kind of engine I can think of.

Why am I harder on you than just about anyone else on this forum? Because you try more stuff than most of the talkers on this forum and you measure stuff. You are a smart dude my friend and not afraid to think about or try stuff (even if it is derived from an Acid trip or thunk up during a 105 degree fever).

You rock bro

E
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:23 PM
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Great stuff.
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Old 07-08-2011, 12:47 PM
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Don't forget the turblown Pport thread also: https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...93#post4025693
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:05 PM
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i feel like i just got out of class. keep the info coming!
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Old 07-08-2011, 01:18 PM
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^ +1 if only University was this practical/real world
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Old 07-08-2011, 02:48 PM
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eric, good show. if i can get my feet planted...i'll have some fun as well
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Old 07-08-2011, 03:39 PM
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This is all good info, Thank you for sharing Eric.

I hope some day to post before and after dyno comparisons on a forced induction set up with Mr. Cain's bridge ported setup.
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Old 07-08-2011, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Flashwing View Post
I'm confused.
He's referring to a PP exhaust Renesis using early '84 housings
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Mazmart View Post
Once again, Eric, I love your attention to detail and methodical approach to r&d. That's the way it always ought to be.
Agreed. If all of the aftermarket intakes took that approach quite a few wouldn't be selling any product
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Old 07-08-2011, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by TeamRX8 View Post
He's referring to a PP exhaust Renesis using early '84 housings
hey i've got a blown Gsl-se out back, why didn't i think of that!
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Old 07-09-2011, 10:18 PM
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sorry guys my brain must be getting old.
Just thought the charge that goes through the bridge would offer a cooling affect on an area that never before had any? Increasing the amount of fuel coming in would also increase the amount of whatever cooling that air/fuel is capable off. Richening up the a/f a little on street driven bridegported car would probably a very wise thing to do. heck It would be wise for stock engines.With the ethanol mess that is going on--you dont know what the heck you have in the tank.

Eric--glad you are hard on me--helps to push me to figure things out for myself. I never accept facts, I love concepts too much. My apologies to the forum members for my rambling/wild ideas at times.

Let me explain my idea better.

My most comfortable area of this car are the cooling systems. I understand those systems better than any of the others. Hence my unexplained concept of the bridge offering cooling through its air/fuel flow to an area closer to the corner and side seal than ever before. For those of you that do not understand that, read a little on intake/exhaust valve cooling in recip engines. And yes--charge cooling is part of the cooling systems. FI guys are well aware of this and I know race teams are also. Keeping the charge cool has more benefits than just allowing more dense air into the rotor.
Anyway--Eric has well documented and identified side seal spring issues that apply to us all. Heat/lubrication seems to be some of the major things that lead to a short side seal spring life. He was able to document that by recording the life of these springs when using oil injection in some engines and then just using premix with no oil injection in others. Using the oil injectors allowed for a longer time before the side seal spring became affected. By using the oil injectors ( i hate that word and they dont "inject") the engine was supplied with oil that lubricates and helps cool the side seals/spings and corner seals hence longer life. So, possibly, the bridgeport by helping to further cool the area closer to the corner/side seal can be of benefit in increasing the side seal spring life? Eric has already said they are getting no signs of the side seal spring issues yet, after hours of running?

So in conclusion, not only does the bridgeport give more breathability, it may also offer a cooling affect to a critical part of the engine that nothing else can?

Any way, crazy or not--that is what I am thinking.

By the way, I know the bridgeport idle speed will be around 1500-2000 rpms , which would make it very impractical for the street. At that idle speed if you have any significant time in stop and go traffic, it is going to run hot. You would have to do some significant changes to the cooling system in order to compensate for that. I was just thinking that others that read the forum may not understand that part of life with a bridgeported engine.

Last edited by olddragger; 07-10-2011 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:32 AM
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I am new to the rotary engine, but would the dynamic compression ratio be lowered after the bridge? Increased overlap and all?

Steve

Last edited by SteveP; 07-11-2011 at 09:52 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:40 AM
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You could create overlap with a bridgeport, as none exists in the Renesis engine. It shouldn't affect compression because that happens after the intake charge.
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:40 AM
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You could create overlap with a bridgeport, as none exists in the Renesis engine. It shouldn't affect compression because that happens after the intake charge.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
By the way, I know the bridgeport idle speed will be around 1500-2000 rpms , which would make it very impractical for the street. At that idle speed if you have any significant time in stop and go traffic, it is going to run hot. You would have to do some significant changes to the cooling system in order to compensate for that. I was just thinking that others that read the forum may not understand that part of life with a bridgeported engine.
Question: What items on the car have higher amp draw and cause the motor to bog down a bit when they turn on? Might this influence idle rpm speed?
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:59 AM
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quick question. when you refer to oil injection for side seals are you talking about the sohn adapter? or something else. forgive me if i am way off target.
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:15 PM
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The Renesis idles lean at close to 800rpm. If you richen up idle and set up the six (!) idle timing maps correctly, it seems like it should be capable of idling better than other bridgeported 13Bs.
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
By the way, I know the bridgeport idle speed will be around 1500-2000 rpms , which would make it very impractical for the street. At that idle speed if you have any significant time in stop and go traffic, it is going to run hot.
My idle is at 1200 RPM, and running fine with no problems. I also still get around 240~260 Miles to a tank. I haven't noticed a significant change in mileage as long as I keep my foot out of the gas.
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by olddragger View Post
sorry guys my brain must be getting old.
Just thought the charge that goes through the bridge would offer a cooling affect on an area that never before had any? Increasing the amount of fuel coming in would also increase the amount of whatever cooling that air/fuel is capable off. Richening up the a/f a little on street driven bridegported car would probably a very wise thing to do. heck It would be wise for stock engines.With the ethanol mess that is going on--you dont know what the heck you have in the tank.
I haven't considered this one but it might be right! Hmmm.

Eric--glad you are hard on me--helps to push me to figure things out for myself. I never accept facts, I love concepts too much. My apologies to the forum members for my rambling/wild ideas at times.

Let me explain my idea better.

My most comfortable area of this car are the cooling systems. I understand those systems better than any of the others. Hence my unexplained concept of the bridge offering cooling through its air/fuel flow to an area closer to the corner and side seal than ever before. For those of you that do not understand that, read a little on intake/exhaust valve cooling in recip engines. And yes--charge cooling is part of the cooling systems. FI guys are well aware of this and I know race teams are also. Keeping the charge cool has more benefits than just allowing more dense air into the rotor.
Right on that point. It's a very important variable to look at on an FI setup depending upon the base fuel type being used.

Anyway--Eric has well documented and identified side seal spring issues that apply to us all. Heat/lubrication seems to be some of the major things that lead to a short side seal spring life. He was able to document that by recording the life of these springs when using oil injection in some engines and then just using premix with no oil injection in others. Using the oil injectors allowed for a longer time before the side seal spring became affected. By using the oil injectors ( i hate that word and they dont "inject") the engine was supplied with oil that lubricates and helps cool the side seals/spings and corner seals hence longer life. So, possibly, the bridgeport by helping to further cool the area closer to the corner/side seal can be of benefit in increasing the side seal spring life? Eric has already said they are getting no signs of the side seal spring issues yet, after hours of running?
4 1/2 hrs at WOT I think is what they tested it at the track with and I want to say there was no side seal spring wear at all.

So in conclusion, not only does the bridgeport give more breathability, it may also offer a cooling affect to a critical part of the engine that nothing else can?

Any way, crazy or not--that is what I am thinking.
Could be. I've never thought of it like that, though. Always looked at it more from the perspective of both the positive and negative effects of overlap.

By the way, I know the bridgeport idle speed will be around 1500-2000 rpms , which would make it very impractical for the street. At that idle speed if you have any significant time in stop and go traffic, it is going to run hot. You would have to do some significant changes to the cooling system in order to compensate for that. I was just thinking that others that read the forum may not understand that part of life with a bridgeported engine.
I run them on street cars between 1200-1400rpm. The Rx8 seems to like the lower RPM end.

B
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Old 07-10-2011, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by reddozen View Post
My idle is at 1200 RPM, and running fine with no problems. I also still get around 240~260 Miles to a tank. I haven't noticed a significant change in mileage as long as I keep my foot out of the gas.
... but that's not fun, B.
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