RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Eric,

Does the 'spring wear' come inevitably from the metal on metal contact of the spring spinning around? Either the seal is the part that is sliding against the plate (end or center), or the seal is largely stationary 'sliding' against the rotor/spring. I'm not sure how they actually move around in there.

High EGTs cooking off the oil there? The seal against the end plate has to be generating friction heat of it's own if not lubricated sufficiently.

Probably not something any of us can even try, as it would be re-design of the rotor and/or end plates, in terms of grooving, parts, etc... but some theories are moving around in my head as to possible solutions, such as making the seal much wider, allowing it to be planted deeper into the rotor, maybe 1/4th of an inch? Deeper to move the spring farther from the heat source. Maybe ceramic, to help shield the spring from the heat as well as the inherent friction benefits. If the spring is wearing right now, maybe eliminating it's sliding or movement by anchoring the seal to it?

Just some thoughts.

EricMeyer

We run the higher RX-7 oil pressure regulator. Typically we see about 115psi at WOT measured at the racing beat oil filler adapter. We don't put big miles on these things so I've never ever seen bearing wear at all. I think (someone else more experienced than I can comment please) that bearing wear comes into play with high mileage and with turbo/superchrg engines. A guy that works for me puts down about 500 rear wheel in his 2nd gen RX-7 and he just grenated his motor----bearing failure and seizure. Again, don't know much about bearing failure other that we send our rotating assemblies to Brian Cain at BDC and he has them balanced for us. He is also quite familiar with how to get better oil delivery/flow in the Renesis (and 13b systems). I highly recommend balancing your assembly WHEN you have your motor apart. Brian has become a good friend and a wonderful source of information about the Renesis. I would chose him hands down if I was looking for a builder. Perhaps he can elaborate on this if he happens to see this post. For turbo and super applications balancing is a no brainer. The stock rotating assembly comes balanced from the factory and there is good room for improvement. This will keep your rotor tips from wearing into the housings for those knuckleheads that think you have to run your engines North of 9,000 to burn out the carbon. This only scores the housings and decreases your engines ability to make higher compression.

We run plain ole' cheap non-synthetic motor oil, change it after every race and have had zero oil related failures in 3 dozen or so engine builds. Use a cheapy oil filter and toss it away every time. Run the engine oil temp around 200F and overcool the water to just over the thermostat at 185F. Remember the oil and water cooling systems compliment each other so a higher water will help contribute to higher oil temps and vice versa. We over cool both and then tape up both the radiator and oil coolers for the appropriate track conditions. This allows us the ability to cool on a very, very hot day on a poor air circulation street course in the draft---you just take more tape off.

Sorry for the long explan. Too much coffee.

E

E

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Awesome, thanks. I run the regulator from Mazmart and see 120PSI at 8500RPM.

I also think over-cooling is a good thing, especially in South Texas. I measure oil temps at the oil pan an rarely see oil temps above 215F under any conditions now that my Fluidyne oil cooler is sealed up and the grill is opened up. Coolant temps still get to 220F sometimes even after being sealed up but I am working on some ducting to address that.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

1) Efficacy is the proper word. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/efficacy

2) I never made any power claims. May I ask you to demonstrate better reading comprehension when contributing to threads so the discussion does not become obfuscated?

3) Pretty impressive resume. Now start charging people around the world real money for products/services based on your ideas, place your entire reputation on the line with each and every invoice you write, and see how that goes for you. Managing a race team is far different than being held responsible for the outcomes of your products/services. Of the dozen, or so, engines I have personally built with my own two hands all of them were for F/I and none of them have failed as a result of BHR's build process. (I think we may have ONE that we lost but it wasn't from the build.)

Lest anyone misunderstand what I am saying here; Meyer Racing is a pretty bad-*** team and Eric has contributed a HELLUVA lot to various discussions on this forum. Similarly, Black Halo Racing are a pretty bad-*** group of guys who are equally bad-*** at serving our own market and customer base with products and services that improve things for our customers and help them achive their goals quite effectively and for the least expense possible.

I am simply interested in having a very focused conversation on some of the minutae regarding the Renesis and I prefer to eschew the dick-measuring that always permeates these conversations.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Gotta love the thesaurus Personally I find big words confusing

I wish we could leave all the dick measuring and marketing out of the discussions as well....they just cloud up the discussion ( obfuscate ? lol ) I think that there is a huge amout of responsibility in running a race team...you gotta bet your sponsors want to know where the mnoney goes

I can't help but chuckle at the 2 of you........you both have vastly different styles...but are trying to get information out there. Leads to lots of laughs sometimes

I'd love the info without all the wrapping

pdxhak

iTrader: (2)

How does one join the argument if they are hung like a light switch

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

This is where the Jews and the Arabs have potential to get along in the Middle East...

Eric and I have opposite concerns, with many similarities and shared/overlapping information/experiences in our respective fields, and most of the people who read our posts are somewhere in this shared/overlapping areas. Very few of them are the hard-core racers that Meyer Racing are and, as a result, much of his information simply will not apply to them. Similarly, BHR concerns ourselves mostly with the street-driver who occasionally wants to track his/her car and we have little hard-core racing data to offer this discussion. (BHR has MazdaManiac's obsessive data-gathering when his car is on the track as well as the thousands of tunes he has provided as our own foundation which serves as our primary source of tuning data.)

Simply put, the racing world expects to break **** and they do not get too twisted up about it when it does. Conversely, our customers expect our products and services to last 50K-100K miles, and they are usually modding their daily-drivers, so they get pretty pissed when something we sold them fails, even if it does so on the track. As such, we at BHR must be sure our stuff will last in many different contexts. That was why I outfitted ModifiedDave's car in the manner I did.

Not to say one concern is better or worse than the other, just different, but I think Eric and I both have substantive information for all to read and that is all I am trying to do; compare and contrast what each of us has learned without histrionics. The readers can decide for themselves which information applies to them.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

When did you chat with my girlfriend?
And how the hell did you get her to admit THAT?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It all depends on if the switch is on...or off



Thanks Ray.

I know my biggest frustration with the information sharing is when the experts of our world butt heads together over semantics and application, and cripple the information sharing in the resulting tussle.

Those of us that are not experts in anything but using toilet paper (and some of us struggle with that), prefer the information to "drama" as some label it.

Most of us aren't qualified to interpret the information we have, and we have to rely on you all to make appropriate sense of it, and when we can't because of the tussling, it ends up meaning that we come up with our own interpretations.

Which are usually wrong.

I don't think anyone else on the forum is able to measure the result of a change to Eric's standards of acceptance. It just isn't viable for us. However, Eric's data and information, as awesome as it is, has to be taken with a grain of the context salt, because that environment is an environment our cars will not see. The information is still very very valuable to us, and we eagerly read his posts, but we still have to take it in the context it's delivered, and attempt to find it's relevance to 100,000+ mile street cars.

My 2 cents (inflation value included)

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Matters are made worse when one considers the fact that no two moments are identical, even when the conditions are seemingly similar and "controlled", so there is a certain tolerance within data simply will not be applicable. Kinda like the percentage of variance every dyno pull will fall within, one moment to the next, even on the same car.

Some things are simply not worth the pursuit when the payoffs are measured and that is where Eric's opinions seem to fall as regards side seal clearances.

My opinion is that the side seal clearance, and the variance from gap-to-gap, is worth the pursuit from a reliability standpoint. Especially since it only costs a little more time and care during the clearancing and assembly process.

As for power claims as a result of such "blueprinting" procedures; I am not sure about that and make no claims about it except to the extent that equally performing rotor faces make for a slightly more efficient engine (whatever THAT might be worth).

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I think I was the one that started the discussion on if there was "power gains" there at all, but reclarified that I think it is more "avoided power loss", more than "power gain".

I believe improper clearancing can certainly be a source of power loss and that proper clearancing removes that issue.

Avoidable power loss is usually not worth discussing, except this is apparently an issue with factory engines.

It would be safer to assume that an engine built with the attention to it that the engine in discussion in this thread has gotten was properly clearanced. Reddozen's post that I was originally responding to was assuming that it wasn't, and attributing most of the power increase over 'factory' to the porting. Which is likely incorrect.

EricMeyer

Charles, you offered comment on the importance of side seal clearances. I have no idea if this has been addressed before in another thread and to be honest with all of you I rarely use the search function.

Do you have any history with this you can share? Mine has been in search of power and conversations I've had with those who have experimented have been the same. They too have found zero or near zero gains. Can you share some of your findings you've discovered while in pursuit of your objectives? I'd be interested to hear any observations you've discovered.

Thanks,

E

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

how much rotor wobble is happening?
Is there anyway that you could test for harmonic's, proper lubrication for the springs?, etc?
In my uneducated gut, i am thinking that in constant state running its all Ok, but when the throttle is closed and then opened is when this is occuring?
Since the side seal is so much closer to the rotor face I also wonder if the combustion gases are getting under the side seal?
Would it be worthwhile to vent the side seal/spring void? Like the apex the gases have a major impact, but unlike the apex, the sides do not have centrifical force to help them and that means the springs are more stressed?
Just throwing out ideas?
OD

rx 8speciale

iTrader: (3)

dont think he have the same access to dino and completed detail data as u Eric, he rebuild some engines and sell parts for the most part, regards

BDC

That wasn't my first guess as to the problem but it is now and has been for a while. I thought there was a side seal growth issue re: the seal being exposed directly to exhaust heat as compared to the older motors. Two engines I did back-to-back both had issues even though one of them had very sloppy side seal clearances.

I believe the problem is a not-so-terrific side seal spring that, when exposed to high EGT's for a lengthy period of time, weakens and then allows the side seal to flop around in the groove a bit, possibly striking the closing edge of intake ports and tearing the seal into two.

B

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

me think you have us konfuzed with other vendirs/memburz around here, regards

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Eric,

I also rarely use the search function......

The only thing I can offer in this particular venue/thread is that I clearance all my engines within .001" of all targeted values and that I have never had a problem with subsequent engine failures and all the engines I have built have been for boosted applications. Granted, we are talking about street engines that do not routinely hang around 8K+ RPMs, as I presume yours do, so you and I have vastly different concerns. Since we all knooooow (sarcasm not intended for you, Eric) that engine stresses due to RPMs are far worse than those due to internal pressures, you are probably pushing the frontiers more than anyone else (in public, anyway). My strictly instinctive, and completely unscientific, opinion on the matter of side seal clearancing as regards power output would be that we might see a 1% difference one way or the other, but that might be based on what I learned years ago when building piston engines.

Another concept to consider (in a very esoteric and ridiculous sense, perhaps), is the idea that all matter has harmonic resonance and maybe the surface of the iron can cause the side seals to chatter (much as the apexes are said to do) at various RPMs........ (just throwing that nonsense out there).

What would be REALLY interesting (and I hate to sound like I am harping on this) is to evaluate the airflow data/manifold vacuum as compared to the various side seal clearances to see what, if any, effects there are from different clearances.

Besides, after our phone call some time ago I am sure you deduced (as rx8speciale has already concluded) that I have nothing of tangible value to offer this community and I shoulda stayed in the music business where my mild stoner tendencies are more widely-accepted.

RotaryMachineRx

iTrader: (1)

Or just refugee your way into Canada... practically legal here

rx 8speciale

iTrader: (3)

lo,l no disrespect intended, ur company rock

Turblown

That is the same conclusion I have drawn. The springs are just stainless steel, should be inconel.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

If you are gonna talk out of your ***, the least you can do is use an approximation of correct English.
It is hard for one to feel properly insulted if one cannot understand WTF you are saying.

Thanks!

PhillipM

Inconel or Nimonic 90 are pretty easy to get in spring steel strip....

rx 8speciale

iTrader: (3)

the compliments were not intended for u MM just Ray! i wass not insulting nobody dude!!!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I always wondered why the windows on the short bus were covered in saliva. Now I know.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

All ya hadda do was turn around and take a look, Co-Retard.