LittleJohn

Btw, don't you have a digital cam??
If so, why don't you just do a macro shot of the dyno..

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

I'm going to try that, thanks LittleJohn.

Hey Jon, gotcha. clear your PM's. :D

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

I think it worked

Oh fer crizz sakes, file to large. It's just a few lines on a white background. Someone should modernize this site to take pictures.

Gomez, is it daytime down around there? I'm E mailing it to you anyway for shrinking and posting. Sorry 'mez but your it.

Sigma

If you want, you can email it to me, I'll shrink it and host it:

mdmillscm[at]hotmail.com

LittleJohn

Ummm... I don't mean to insult your intelligence or anything like that j/k.. But most digital cameras will have an option to save pics in a size that is suitable for emailing. It should be under the "Picture Quality" menu or something like that. :D

btw.. fwiw.. you can email me the pic to be "forumized" if you like :D

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, I already E mailed it to the Little guy who is insulting me.j/k

BTW has anyone answered about the lack of Email notices from the forum?

guitarjunkie28

you must understand he's old :p ... old people don't like modern technology. hell, i can hardly keep up with it and i'm only 26!!

LittleJohn

Huh??
you did???
when... i don't see it anywhere

EDIT: I think you forgot the ".au" at the end, please resend.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

What you mean, I just double clicked on the address you sent me.
Ok, I now sent it on the other address. :D

Floyd

Damn...that was just about 12 post trying to send a pic....we must be caught up to that other thread by now!

LittleJohn

OK here it is

EDIT: I'm no guru... but RAP, your Dyno doens't look the part ... looks like your yellow beast is struggling in the upper rpms.... maybe the vdi is a little sticky and fluttering.
Also where is the RPM scale???

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

That's the point I'm trying to get across. As to the rpm scale I can't even believe the shop printed it out that way. Who the hell cares about the mph?
Anyway you can see the 6200 point because that is where the aux open. This was an A/B test with the aux hooked up and disconected. But it still flutters at the top. That is why we are going to be looking at the little motor.

Guitar Junkie is looking at it for me on Friday. Are you out there Dave? Look at the curve.

Sigma

Well, the plus side is that you look like you got a good motor. Looks like you'll hit or exceed 180whp once you get the problem fixed.

djgiron

yeah, then he will exceed 250 when he hooks up the AFSC

guy321

You can design, engineer, and build a turbine, including machining all the parts with precision but you cant check for a stuck valve without assistance?


(not ment as a bash, i just think it's funny)

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Well, MazdaUSA themselves can't find anything so I figured I best get someone who has worked on these things a bunch. Nothing like doing buisness with an old established firm. He also has the electronic equipment.

Yes I can do all those other things and I also know not to screw where I don't belong.

guy321

i dont trust mazda to change my oil..

zoom44

as long as you know the gear you were in you can do the calculations and get teh rpm. just write it on there under the mph.

question- have you had time to decide how to mount the bloody thing now that you can at least look at the space in person?

putitinyabastard

brillo

Richard, this pretty much confirms RG thoughts. Can you get someone with a working Aux port valve motor to swap their's with yours, run it on a dyno and narrow it down to the motor? It should be and easy swap. Who's around you in Cali that could help? If you had to replace it, what does it cost?

rotarygod

Just got off of the phone with Richard. The 2 plots were taken back to back. One was with the auxillary port valve hooked up normally and the other with it disconnected. Obviously the run with it disconnected was the lower power run. If you look at this run and compare it to his original run from a few weeks back, it looks very close to it. The curve is basically the same. Richard also said that there are times when the car seems like it want's to get up and go but those are rare. The only thing I can think of right now is that the auxiliary port valves were stuck closed for some reason on the original run. Through driving the car, they are starting to turn more freely. They may not be opening completely though and this would cause alot of turbulence through the ports themselves and explain the high rpm breakup. He said there wasn't any ignition breakup on the dyno pickup. This is all I can think of and is nothing more than a hunch. My suggestion is to take the little auxiliary port motor out and check how freely the sleeves rotate.

rotarygod

OK I've been giving this alot of thought and thinking about the auxiliary ports on the older engines. I have a possible explanation as to how the Renesis auxiliary ports could potentially get stuck closed. This will take some imagination to follow where I am going with this.

First we need to examine what we know of the Renesis engine. Judging by some of the carbon lock issues with even low mileage engines on the auto cars, it is obvious that carbon is a bigger problem with the Renesis than the older rotary engines. This can be attributed to the exhaust port location and how easy it is for carbon to get expelled from the engine. We've been over all of this before. The Renesis exhaust ports have a very strange shape to them. On the top side of the ports is a very gentle slope out of the port to the combustion chamber. This does nothing for flow. It is there to help more gently push any carbon deposits out of the ports so seals don't break. Mazda tried the side exhaust ports in the early 70's and found carbon buildup to ultimately break seals due to accumulation in the exhaust ports. There were other reasons why they didn't use the side ports back then but I won't get into that here. So let's say Richard got an older car that didn't get driven a whole lot. Maybe the amount it did get driven originally wasn't at a high enough rpm to ever open the auxiliary ports. At least not on a regular basis. We have seen from some of the auto's that carbon can get significant enough to completely freeze an engine and it can do this in a fairly short amount of miles.

Remember that the exhaust port shape is such that carbon gets pushed upward out of the ports. It gets pushed somewhere. Notice what lies in the direct path of this carbon. The intake ports! It would be no big deal for some carbon to build up or enter into the primary or even the secondary intake ports as they have air flowing through them fairly often and can easily more this carbon back into the combustion chamber. However this wouldn't be the case with the auxiliary ports. They are nothing more than a rotating sleeve inserted into the intake runner. When these sleeves are closed, there is a small gap in the port itself left between the sleeve and the rotor as it passes over. Any carbon that is being carried by the rotor may fall into this little gap of an area and buildup. If the engine is never revved high enough to open these ports, alot of carbon has time to build up in significant amounts. What happens now if the enigine does reach a high enough rpm to open these ports? Is it possible that some of this carbon will work it's way in between the rotating sleeve and the housing? It happens to the older engines that don't get revved up. Let's say that the sleeves open a few times but over a long period of time such as the rare occasion the driver hits that high of an rpm. In between openings there is plenty of time for mroe carbon to buildup and more of a chance for it to get in between the sleeve and the housing. The more that gets in there, the harder it will get to turn them until ultimately they stick shut completely.

The Renesis actually cycles these sleeves ever 9 or 10 times the engine is started or something like that to keep carbin buildup out of them. However if the mileage on Richard's car was highway mileage, it may be a long time between clearing cycles and these cycles by the car may have actually caused some of the carbon to get between the sleeves and the housings. Remember the ecu will NOT throw a code if your ports are not opening! Only if the don't close. If these ports stick shut, the only thing happening when the ecu cycles these is that it is cycling a current to the auxillary port valve motor even though the motor isn't turning. It will never throw a code if this happens. If these valves were constantly turning such as with the person who always revs it high enough, the carbon could actually work it's way back out of the gap and back into the engine.

If there is in fact a small amount of buildup, this could also lead to that tiny little electric motor working very hard and may serve to weaken it over time. While everything I write here is pure speculation on my part, it seems to me that Richard's car for some reason or another had the auxiliary ports stuck closed. Over time he revved it up higher and the strain on the motor trying to turn these sleeves has slowly cleared it out enough that they are now turning. You can see that on a later dyno. There may still be some buildup though that is not allowing them to open all the way. This would cause alot of turbulence through these ports and could possibly explain the power flutter up top. Airflow past a flat edge isn't terribly smooth, especially when it is cycling such as in an engine. It appears to me that the more Richard drives the car hard, the more cleared out it gets until ultimately the problem may serve to alleviate itself. The immediate fix might be to completely remove the entire intake manifold assembly and physically clean out the runnes and valves. Just removing the motor and seeing how well the valves turn is a good way to see if this is actually happening or not.

I anxiously await what Dave (guitarjunkie) finds out this weekend. That's my hypothesis though. That means, drive your cars like they were meant to be driven!

zoom44

he hehe you headed me off at teh pass- i was about to suggest pickup problems

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Now that's the RotaryGod we all remember and love, LONG WINDED.
I used to have Professors who I think graded on how many pages there were in you work. RG would get good grades in those classes. I was just tempted to put in some extra blank pages. You know, a blank between each topic or any other excuse.

Richard Paul

iTrader: (5)

Here's what we know about the car itself. It was built late 03. It probably sat on the lot and was moved around time to time. It was in NJ so it saw weather. It shows that all the recalls were done, so it got moved to the shop and back. I bought the car and it was trucked here. When I got it off the truck it had a total of 22 miles on it. It now has 2500.

So we know it sat for about 20 months never gatting driven or even warmed up. It got driven onto the boat, off to the dock. Then sat until it was driven onto a truck, then off. Run around the car lot a few times. Put on the truck out here, then off at the hub and then onto the local truck.

Probably never had a full warm up it's whole life until I got it. It may have been flooded by one of those moving it, but it doesn't show in the history. Therefore I don't think it had the chance to build up carbon. It did have plenty of time to oxidize the aluminum. Since no fuel was in there we can't blame gumming from that. I don't know the design so I can't guess on anything mechanical screwing up.

Bottom line is we all agree that this is the place to look. We also agree there is something wrong. "We" does not include Mazda. It doesn't exclude other areas that might wind up being the problem.

guy321

Is there any way to stimulate the motors to see if they are actuating?