Axial Flow Supercharger
01-25-2005, 08:10 AM
#1101
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Don't know if this has been posted before ... but kind of interesting. A prelude to the AFSC and for those who are looking for sound/video clips ... maybe this is not truly representative, but perhaps you get the idea ...
http://www.rolls-royce.com/education...ney/flash.html
http://www.rolls-royce.com/education...ney/flash.html
01-25-2005, 05:03 PM
#1104
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Gomez, you had PLENTY of time after the tennis last night, so did you get it in?
jack.
BTW off-shorers, today is Australia Day, a public holiday, so expect progress posts from Gomez.
jack.
BTW off-shorers, today is Australia Day, a public holiday, so expect progress posts from Gomez.
01-25-2005, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Photic
You don't have a car for testing? All of these people in SoCal and nobody has stepped up to offer a tester? Or have I just read things wrong? Do you have a tester with the mystery company? I'd do it if there would be some sort of coverage in case something goes wrong etc.
And just for Gomez, Federer won pretty handily :D
01-25-2005, 09:30 PM
#1108
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
If I don't hear from thatgomezbastard soon I'm coming through the wires for him. 
Hymee, you know where he is?
This is payback for taking so long to get him one. How does he have that much self control??
Hymee, you know where he is?
This is payback for taking so long to get him one. How does he have that much self control??
Just kidding Gomez, can't wait for the pictures and a thorough review. :D
01-26-2005, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
Well first of all we get 18 psi from 7 stages. Now of course you can get some cooling from water around the housing but it wouldn't be enough. Think of the surface area of all those fins in an intercooler. How would you get the water? It would have to be very cold to do any good. In an off shore boat this might be of some use. However lets look at the practical considerations, like how would I make the housing? It has to seal on the ends and if made in two halves each other. I can't see an easy way to even fit it with the draw rods in the way. That would keep you from sealing on the volutes.
The axial flow supercharger consists basically of several rings (well sort of according to the pictures). If each ring had a somewhat larger diameter, you could lathe half-round grooves into these rings. Into each ring you could press an aluminum tube, similar to these guys (just on a cylindrical piece instead of a plate): http://www.lytron.com/custom/custom_cp.htm
Then each tube (7 tubes total) would be connected to a manifold attached to the supercharger and the manifold is connected to a water/air heat exchanger. This could be an approach where you wouldn't have to worry about sealing or assembly issues. The waterflow would be disconnected from the supercharger.
Also if you wanted to even further cool the compressed air after the last stage you could add another stator with a lot of fins and extra wide just for the purpose of cooling the air.
Last edited by globi; 01-26-2005 at 09:15 AM.
01-26-2005, 09:45 AM
#1111
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This is interesting because Lytron is helping, the company I work for, build a liquid cooled heatsink for our electronics. We've been playing around with a couple of different configurations and have run a bunch of heat rise tests. The design works really well under ideal situations but we have found the stack up of tolerances might be an issue in production. If the tube is not in solid contact with the plate the efficiency drops significantly and this might be difficult to over come with the construction of Richard's supercharger.
On another note, all of the cold plate manufactures we have talked to (AAVID, Lytron, Wakefield) recommended 6063 aluminum for best results.
On another note, all of the cold plate manufactures we have talked to (AAVID, Lytron, Wakefield) recommended 6063 aluminum for best results.
Last edited by Speed Racer; 01-26-2005 at 09:47 AM.
01-26-2005, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Speed Racer
This is interesting because Lytron is helping, the company I work for, build a liquid cooled heatsink for our electronics. We've been playing around with a couple of different configurations and have run a bunch of heat rise tests. The design works really well under ideal situations but we have found the stack up of tolerances might be an issue in production. If the tube is not in solid contact with the plate the efficiency drops significantly and this might be difficult to over come with the construction of Richard's supercharger.
If the manifold was split, you could use the manifold to tighten the tubes around the supercharger. Or in other words if the inlet section and the outlet section of the manifold was seperated, you could then change the distance between those 2 parts and hence put tension on the tubes. The manifold would serve 2 purposes one to distribute cooling water and one to put tension on the tubes.
01-26-2005, 10:31 AM
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Globi,
I was envisioning the tubing spiraling around the supercharger and couldn't see a good way of keeping the copper tubing tight against the housing. Your band clamp idea would probably work a lot better. :D
I was envisioning the tubing spiraling around the supercharger and couldn't see a good way of keeping the copper tubing tight against the housing. Your band clamp idea would probably work a lot better. :D
01-26-2005, 11:14 AM
#1114
A round tube even tight hasn't got molecular contact. It still relies on conduction for transfer. There is a minimum amount of surface area when a round surface is touching another surface. There isn't going to be enough cooling here unless you hadsome very cold heat transfer medium.
Next, the number of fins and the amount of area of they have is part of the aerodynamic design. This is known as the solidity and is part of the equations for proper function. There is a very critical balance of many componants in an axial flow compressor. In fact it is one of the most complex of all aerodynamic designs. It has added inputs compared to say a wing.
It is known as a 3 dimentional calculation. It cascades and complicates the problems.
Globi, your going to werar me out with this. I'm glad you found a playmate for your thoughts. Speed Racer, you two keep working on it. Then build me a model and we can test it. One stage will do.
Next, the number of fins and the amount of area of they have is part of the aerodynamic design. This is known as the solidity and is part of the equations for proper function. There is a very critical balance of many componants in an axial flow compressor. In fact it is one of the most complex of all aerodynamic designs. It has added inputs compared to say a wing.
It is known as a 3 dimentional calculation. It cascades and complicates the problems.
Globi, your going to werar me out with this. I'm glad you found a playmate for your thoughts. Speed Racer, you two keep working on it. Then build me a model and we can test it. One stage will do.
01-26-2005, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
A round tube even tight hasn't got molecular contact. It still relies on conduction for transfer. There is a minimum amount of surface area when a round surface is touching another surface. There isn't going to be enough cooling here unless you hadsome very cold heat transfer medium.
Next, the number of fins and the amount of area of they have is part of the aerodynamic design. This is known as the solidity and is part of the equations for proper function. There is a very critical balance of many componants in an axial flow compressor. In fact it is one of the most complex of all aerodynamic designs. It has added inputs compared to say a wing.
It is known as a 3 dimentional calculation. It cascades and complicates the problems.
Globi, your going to werar me out with this. I'm glad you found a playmate for your thoughts. Speed Racer, you two keep working on it. Then build me a model and we can test it. One stage will do.
Next, the number of fins and the amount of area of they have is part of the aerodynamic design. This is known as the solidity and is part of the equations for proper function. There is a very critical balance of many componants in an axial flow compressor. In fact it is one of the most complex of all aerodynamic designs. It has added inputs compared to say a wing.
It is known as a 3 dimentional calculation. It cascades and complicates the problems.
Globi, your going to werar me out with this. I'm glad you found a playmate for your thoughts. Speed Racer, you two keep working on it. Then build me a model and we can test it. One stage will do.
But just to clarify: The round tube would fit into a round groove, so you'd have a surface area of half a tube. The heat transfer from solid to solid is of course much better than from solid to air. So I wouldn't be too worried about this part. We actually use similar aluminum coldplates and they seem to be pretty effective and there's a very uniform temperature distribution eventhough there's a large gap inbetween tubes.
But of course I don't know much about aerodynamic design of axial compressors. I don't even know how hot the housing of that compressor gets. Only a significantly hot housing would justify watercooling. Besides as Hymee did you could always attach an air/water intercooler after the supercharger and still build the whole thing relatively small without increasing the length of the intake tubes. Oh well...
Regarding making a model: I have access to ProE. So I guess I could design the housing and manifold part, but have not much of a clue how to design the fins.
01-26-2005, 01:58 PM
#1116
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I thought it was determined that the intercooler just wasn't necessary? I think Richard said that the drawbacks of an intercooloer would override and good that it did. Unless this is some sort of new fangled intercooler design, it's all over my head anyway. Keep informing, me likey learny :D
01-26-2005, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Aoshi Shinomori
I thought it was determined that the intercooler just wasn't necessary? I think Richard said that the drawbacks of an intercooloer would override and good that it did. Unless this is some sort of new fangled intercooler design, it's all over my head anyway. Keep informing, me likey learny
01-26-2005, 02:04 PM
#1118
I couldn't teach you how to do the blades. It's that hard.
But here's a though for you. How about if I made the stator thicker and drilled holes in the direction of flow Axially. Line the holes up when assembling it and somehow feed them from a groove at each end. No extra parts this way. No manifolds to tighten. Best of all you'd have molecular contact.
I actually built a blower that way but used the holes for the draw rods. There were even holes in the rotors for the same reason. But this was not cost effective even for prototyping, as this was.
Like the last words Sundance said to Butch "You just keep thinking."
But here's a though for you. How about if I made the stator thicker and drilled holes in the direction of flow Axially. Line the holes up when assembling it and somehow feed them from a groove at each end. No extra parts this way. No manifolds to tighten. Best of all you'd have molecular contact.
I actually built a blower that way but used the holes for the draw rods. There were even holes in the rotors for the same reason. But this was not cost effective even for prototyping, as this was.
Like the last words Sundance said to Butch "You just keep thinking."
01-26-2005, 02:15 PM
#1119
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Originally Posted by globi
I was asking him, what if he had more stages and needed an intercooler and what if he wanted to built that all integrated instead of having a seperate unit. Currently he doesn't need an intercooler so it was a hypothetical question.
01-26-2005, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Paul
But here's a though for you. How about if I made the stator thicker and drilled holes in the direction of flow Axially. Line the holes up when assembling it and somehow feed them from a groove at each end. No extra parts this way. No manifolds to tighten. Best of all you'd have molecular contact.
I actually built a blower that way but used the holes for the draw rods. There were even holes in the rotors for the same reason. But this was not cost effective even for prototyping, as this was.
I actually built a blower that way but used the holes for the draw rods. There were even holes in the rotors for the same reason. But this was not cost effective even for prototyping, as this was.
01-26-2005, 06:40 PM
#1122
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cant see enough of the plane but something about the line of wing leading edge and the angle of the fuselage from cockpit aft makes me think A-10. anyone know the gunghobastard strapped to where a bomb should be?
01-26-2005, 06:53 PM
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Agreed, looks like an A-10 Thunderbolt II aka the Warthog. The plane that is, not the guy (although he does remind me of a warthog in profile...). 
01-26-2005, 07:24 PM
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The low swept wing and the weapons plyons are the give away. I'm not sure what an M-16 would add to the GAU-8 in the nose (30 mm rounds @ 3900 rounds/min). See http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=70 for more tidbits.
Interesting fact: The A-10 uses two turbo fan engines. Rather unique for a combat aircraft. The turbofan is an axial flow supercharger shafted to a low pressure turbine with a combustion chamber in between. Whew, finally back on topic...
Interesting fact: The A-10 uses two turbo fan engines. Rather unique for a combat aircraft. The turbofan is an axial flow supercharger shafted to a low pressure turbine with a combustion chamber in between. Whew, finally back on topic...