Fueling.

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...95#post3831395
Thank Jeff

Can't see that affecting the whp vs manifold pressure relationship that much -interested to see what happens at WOT .

Me too...:sad:

Seriously? Seriously?!?


:dunno:

Lol..i just meant that im curious to see what happens at WOT...

Yes seriously . He says 60% throttle . I don't know about you , but the difference between 60% throttle and WOT in my car is negligable as far as power output goes .
I just found one of my old logs that has 60% throttle and WOT on the same log - the difference in MAF is ................... NIL !

Of course it does depend a little on what he meant by 60% - was it actually 60% as logged (78% is WOT according to Dudelogger)or just - "this feels a bit like 60%" ?

added it to the highest WHP chart
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-major-horsepower-upgrades-93/highest-horsepower-dynos-sc-turbo-nitrous-post-them-here-180037/

Made another round of tuning. Jeff was able to raise the torque curve up some in certain areas with fine tuning. @ wot boost would creep to 14psi past 6k rpms, and up there the engine would make a lot of very small misfires dropping power off, just when it was really ready to take off. HP was at a 60 degree incline at this point. Airflow was in the low 400s, I want to say Jeff said he saw 440 g/s at one point.

I am sure Jeff will chime in...

Possible culprits causing the misfires?

Might be lean misfires from lack of fuel. I've seen it before even when the o2 shows rich. Fuel pressure drops to 52psi in boost. Turbo cars really need a regulator with a boost reference, but that requires a lot of work since the stock one has to be used to siphon the other saddle..

The manifold pressure was around 12 PSI or so, which you have to subtract from the fuel delivery pressure since it isn't referenced, putting the relative delivery pressure at 40 PSI, which is somewhat low.
Even on my own system, I run at 65 PSI and that puts the fuel delivery pressure a bit on the low side at 53 PSI. A 1:1 regulator (with a return-style system) would fix that.
I don't remember what your injector setup was, but more injector would offset this as well (though not in a manner as predictable as a proper fuel system).

The lambda at full load looked good, but since we don't have EGT, there is no way of knowing whether the fuel was contributing to power or not.
There was a metric shit-ton of air going in and the boost started to creep exactly at the moment it started to break up, so EGT was probably increasing. More fuel may fix that, but it is hard to say without trying it.

Stock primaries, and the other 4 uncapped.

We are gonna try and see if spraying the largest shot of methanol only helps...

I'm thinking more injector is a good idea.
A set of 2009 and up secondaries - uncapped - would be an effective upgrade.
That should add about 400cc - 600cc of total injection volume.

A big shot of methanol will be complicated (since its fuel value is about half that of gasoline and it is extremely volatile), but maybe just replacing the water injection at its current volume with at least 50/50 might fix things (or at least point in one direction or another).

My instincts tell me it will be counterproductive.

At what WHP/rpm was the misfiring occuring ?

Seems to be 6000 rpms at 260ft lbs of torque.

Methanol didn't seem to do anything, and we drove the car with the fuel pump top off and disconnected the siphon setup. We wanted to see if the FPR was staying shut at full boost, and it is... Not an issue there...

260ft lbs @ 6000 - sounds easy for your setup .


I don't see anywhere that you mention what your ignition setup is or how much water/meth you are injecting ?

Is MM tuning this remotely or is he actually there ?

He's here. This is with no ai, and bhr coils.

item #4

http://kgparts.com/index.php?page=kgfuel

I see. I suppose what ultimately matters is the amount that gets injected into the chamber, but thats difficult to achieve without the pressure behind it.

Elliot, Jeff...what do you two think is the optimal solution vs the cost effective one?

7200 RPM IIRC. I don't remember the power at that point.

I've had a set of those sitting in a box in my garage for the last two years. lol
Eventually, I'll get around to using them.

Optimal? Twin external pumps and an accumulator, Keith's rails as noted above, Injector Dynamics 700cc injectors in the P2 and secondary, all braided AN-4 plumbing and a 1:1 Aeromotive pressure regulator with a proper return.
Peripheral port exhaust. A third rotor.

Cost effective? I'd just start with bigger injectors and a longer MAF tube.

Dont get me goin Jeff...i've been thinking about that... lol

As far as the Aeromotive pressure reg, I sent a message to E earlier about it.

Here is the list of parts that I can think of right now...Im sure i've left a couple things out...

Custom Turblown SS Tubular Manifold, Down Pipe
Tial 44mm Wastgate
Custom Turblown BOV
AEM Water/Alcohol injection kit
Installation of AEM w/a injection kit
Garrett Based FMIC installed
Cobb Accessport Dyno tuning (Mazda Maniac)
Walbro & Fuel Injectors Installation
Turbo System Installation
Turbo Cooling Lines
Ignition Upgrade Install
Accessport Install
Lotek Gauge Pod
Prosport Gauges (3) Oil Press, EGT, Boost
Radiator coolant hardlines, and modified T-stat assembly
Modify AEM CAI
Reworked and cleaned injectors
Iconel Heatshields DP/Turbine/Manifold
Wiring harness heat shield
Walbro Fuel Pump
Battery Relocation
BHR coils
Midpipe
Oil/Spark plug change 9L and greddy 10 T
New ACT clutch installed
wg dump tube
Flywheel resurface and new pilot bearing seal
Bosch Battery
Swap Tial bov for recirc
Mobil 1 Oil change/Coolant
Additonal Modifications to intake, relocation of surge tank
omp relocation, & parts etc

So Since we are talking about ID injectors, they have a 1000cc and a 2000cc.
I have been told I'm 400cc short of 300hp and i have upcapped Secondaries flowing 880cc's. If I swap in the 1000cc's that gets me 40cc shy of the desired fueling. :eek:

I'm guessing i need to swap in the ID2000 's in the future.

(remember I'm a Four Port kinda guy :naughty:)

I wonder how the Elliot and Jeff are doing today. Hmmmm:dunno:

Aux ports open first graph

And open vs closed

10 PSI, NO AI, Stock Block

DAAAAAAAAAAAM! :icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup: :icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup: :icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup::icon_tup:

Stock Block...OMFG!

HOLY CRAP!

I can't believe my eyes!

wow

BAM! Do you have the boost and afr graphs?

/\ +1 Awesome numbers .

Corrected or uncorrected ?

Omfg!
Congrats guys, that's awesome!

Thanks guys. Sae corrected.

09factor is next, dave get some bigger injectors and let's do 15psi I want to see 350 ft lbs of torque ;). Now that would be quick..

wow big things! you guys just raised the bar dramatically! any videos?:fingersx:

wow 426 out of 10psi, holy shit

what are your egt's like?

when is full boost hitting?

Personally, I think the 360 HP dyno looks like more fun, but that is just my opinion.

We didn't have any telemetry for the EGTs, but I suspect they were pretty low.
When we first started tuning, we had a pretty good misfire going on up top which would cause a pretty significant boost surge from the elevated EGTs. Once we got the fueling under control, that went away.

We loaded the dyno at 3000 RPM before starting the run. The turbo would start at 3 PSI or so at that point. It hits the full pressure at 4200 or so, but, as you can see, it is making pretty good torque by then.

I'm guessing you didn't want the lean spike from the ports opening ?


That is the really surprising thing (to me)- low down torque looks to be excellent .

Keeping the ports closed to 6700rpms~ish yields a lot more torque down low( just look at the graph). Having a functioning SSV would really make this powerband incredible.
All the kits from now on will have enough space to allow ECU operation of the SSV valve. I was under the impression that the SSV was basically useless on the turbo cars, so I didn't accommodate it for this build. I preferred the extra downpipe space as I originally didn't build this turbo & downpipe on this car.

Vidoes are coming! We are also re-upping our vendor status...

was this "360hp" done Before the final run?

looking at the dyno thread brettus made your car's 307s still makes more power lower then the top mounts


thats neat, I would think with the smaller T3 flange that EGT and Pressure would be higher, I really don't know the size difference perhaps the t3 divided is only lightly smaller.

SSV or Aux ports ?
Yes , having fully functional aux ports will indeed give you an awesome powerband . Some tuners leave them open all the time to prevent a lean spike but that does leave some on the table down low .

With the aux ports operating normally the curve will actually be above the 3071 all the way pretty much . That I find staggering for a large turbo .

He meant AUX, not SSV.

The 30rxx still beats it in torque before 5000 RPM, but total power isn't as high.
Different animal.

Yes only by a whisker though . Are you surprised how good it is low down ?

but its not about max power, its about how it feels


so am I incorrect about excessive pressure and heat on a smaller size exhaust housing and flange?

So, can we now agree that most were under estimating how much this motor can flow w/ the restricted exhaust ports. Nice Work fellas.

I can understand why you might think this for the street, but the later is the better.

w/ the restricted exhaust ports

I did't see a port on this block in the mod list, what are you referring to?

So the SSV was permanently wired open for both dyno graphs obviously?

I'm still blown away that this was achieved with an un-modified motor...the results are just all the more respectable...

read again, one was tied open, yielded good top-end power
other run was tied close yielded higher low rpm power but top-end suffered

hence leave it closed till 5300rpms then open it = best turbo rx-8 dyno yet

but it sounds like how this kit was built, the AUX will no longer work with out a different down pipe

No, actually I understood it pretty clear the first time...the AUX ports are open on the first graph and closed on the second comparison graph, E mixed up AUX and SSV, nothing was mentioned about whether the SSV was open on both graphs but they obviously look like they are, I just wanted clarification. Right, the AUX port actuator won't work with the dp in the way, which is fine for my setup and I'm sure Jamaal will leave his open too with this setup... ;)