zoom44

well i had to go look at the diagram again- i was connecting the wrong tracks in my previous post.

but the blue power line still does the same thing



drops until 7250 where it bumps up. your experiment as i understand it kept the tertiary tract closed at 6500. hence we see the power fall off. but at 7250 the VDI opens. thats exactly where we see your power bump up.



so it must be having some effect?

rkostolni

Jeff are you confusing VDI with Vfad?

Scott does turn off VDI with his Interceptor. So he must have found it to make a positive improvement. My dyno graph doesn't have that spot, so Zoom may be correct in that the VDI system is causing it.

MadDog

VFAD SSV APV VDI ....whatever....

zoom44

fixed mine

rk it could be a result of keeping the runner closed at 6500. maybe if the runner opens the later VDI opening has no effect- it appears it doesnt in the other run on his chart. (well there is a small blip there but nothing like in the blue run)

rkostolni

I'm talking about the dip in power right around there. I've circled what I'm talking about in the dyno chart. It is there on both runs.

zoom44

oh ok im talkign about the areas ive circled here.

i think the aea you have circled might be due to mad dogs injector control AFR looks like it goes a little richer there especially in the red run

rkostolni

Hmm, you're right. There places I circled are too early to be VDI.

zoom44

ooh i just had a thought about this-

the stock maps are built with the idea that the VFAD will open at @ 5500 and WOT. so the stock maps probably add fuel at this point expecting there to be more air coming. since mad dog doesnt have total control this fuel must be added with the injectors he isnt controlling. the added fuel costs him a little hp.

with the interceptor the maps were made without ever considering added fuel for the VFAD because the T cars have all done away with the VFAD. so you dont see that dip.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Yes I am, absolutely.
Sorry. Brain fart.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Once again, since I don't have my RX-8 in front of me, I can't contribute.
I would get an ammeter (set your VOM to current) and run it inline with the input to the APV motor. If the current is low enough, you could run it directly. Otherwise, you would need a relay/triac setup or even a low-power motor controller hooked up to the pulse output.
Its just a servo motor. I don't even know what it looks like, though.

MadDog

It needs from 0.9 to 1.9 Amps ... way too much for the e-01 to supply. I was thinking about running a relay.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Wow. Almost 2 amps. That is a lot of current to pull right through the PCM.
I guess the injectors do the same.

Remember, it is bi-directional, so you need to wire it accordingly.
That is why I suggested a motor controller and an analog to PWM triac or similar.

MadDog

Hey Zoom, I know this isn't the RPM you are talking about, but checkout this plot from Xyantax. This is the lean spike that I was always observing at ~6kRPM. Finally, some evidence that this is a systemic problem. No one else ever came forward to say they have seen it.

Anyway, from the looks of it, it doesn't seem like the stock fuel tables are really compensating for the opening of these ports.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I think that is where the P2 injectors come on in a NA car...you have yours cut??

There is a rich spot there and it will probably smooth out when you tune the map better

zoom44

dan that rich spot rk is talking about is on mad dogs chart. rk has said he does not have that there. and mad dog the post you quoted is talkign abotu the area that RK circled- but yeah i see your lean spot

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Mad...with your logging of injector pulsewidth, and injector staging...have you noticed how the P2 injector initiation is situated in regards to open/closed loop transition? Does the P2 injector initiate when the transition happens.....or at a set RPM/Load? I have noticed that the transition seems to move in response to ???? on the dyno. Probably time. Some plots have the transition at much lower levels...and go rich a lot earlier than others...yeilding lower power in the midrange....with almost the same Lamba readings after everything settles out when the APV opens. The more I think about it if the P2's come on in open loop areas...and and the Secondaries are supplying most of the closed loop areas...that you are on the right track to get the boosted areas sorted out.

MadDog

Dan, yes. The injector staging varies a lot according to gear and load. Sometimes I could almost get to 7.5kRPM without the P2's coming on I was was just cruising and not really accelerating. Again, the gear you are in seems to be one of the variables. The PCM must have different tables for different gears. The P2's never come on in closed-loop operation from what I've seen. But, when they actually do come on, and their duty cycle, can vary quite a bit. The secondaries are definitely the ones that the PCM varies the most. The P1's are just always on full tilt.

When I took complete control of the P2's I had to account for the non-boosted operation of the P2's as well. I tried to err on the safe side: make them come on at the lowest RPM I had observed and give them the max duty cycle I had observed - regardless of gear or load. Seems to be working just fine so far!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

The PCM has no way to know what gear you are in.
Instead, it extrapolates time data from the wheel speed and the RPM.
The PCM has different fueling strategies based on time at certain load levels.

MadDog

Well, okay. While it doesn't have a 'gear sensor' it ceratinly is calculating (although indirectly) the gear by comparing wheel speed and engine speed. Its a direct and 1:1 mapping. I refer to the PCM fuel tables as 'gear sensitive' because the PCM behavior that I observe is consistent only in the same gear. The PCM isn't thinking 3rd gear, but the result is the same as if it were. And, its a useful way for me to think about it.

rkostolni

Scott said he believes my turbo died from short bursts of high egt's from lean spikes. These ports opening could have been the culprit! I didn't have a WB O2 at the time so who knows how much of a spike I was getting. Damn glad it didn't pop the motor!

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

As noted in tht other thread:

The shaft is blue because the turbo stopped spinning when the bearings died and it cooked with no flow.
A spinning turbo can take 2400°F without flinching.
You had oil pressure/flow problems in the turbo itself and/or surge which is why it failed.

Sapphonica

We're seeing those same #@!$*' lean spikes.

This has forced us to take control of the injectors directly. I'm hoping to have the car back sometime early next week.

MadDog

You mean that one at ~6000RPM when the tertiary runners open? Good luck tuning that one out. Its a bitch.

You mean your super-secret Skunkworks ECU wasn't taking full control of the injectors before? Interesting....

Sapphonica

We tried spoofing the signals going back to the factory ECU so we could still get some use out of the factory ECU's control functions. Didn't work out.

We're controlling the injectors directly now.

MadDog

Okay, I gotta say it: It sounds like you tried some kind of WB02 fooler to avoid fuel trim issues and that you are using an eManage....