13B REW swap is finished
12-05-2008, 12:24 PM
#76
The IntX is a good start for this...it has the harness...and the Microtech harnesses are the same. If you use the older trigger wheel the Microtech will either have to be sent to Aus to be re-programmend...or you will need to swap the LT10 for a version that supports the trigger wheel you are using.
I think that Microtech will reprogram the LT10 in the IntX for about $200 or so...
I think that Microtech will reprogram the LT10 in the IntX for about $200 or so...
12-05-2008, 01:59 PM
#77
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The way it was explained to me is that the car itself will still run off of the RX8 ecu. The motor will be the only thing that is run off of the Power FC. two seperate systems for the car and motor.
12-06-2008, 08:55 AM
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Yes you can get a motor for 3500us this translates to 4000 cad. This engine will be a basic street port with no structural modifications. Also you will be needing to provide a core. This is an extra 1000$. Also you will be needing a custom manifold(intake and exhaust) and alot of fabrication (aluminum and steel) Dot forget your clutch, custom downpipe,intercooler, bov, boost control, piping, wastegate, ems, fuel system etc...
Now you need to get this all installed and tuned. The bill is easily 15-20k Canadian. For those that dont know the current exchange. 75cents usd buys you 1 usd.
You could do the swap alot cheaper. But when you drop your car off at the facility of your choice. There will be extra charges that dont normaly occur at home.
Regards,
Marko Stilinovic
Forcefed Racing
Now you need to get this all installed and tuned. The bill is easily 15-20k Canadian. For those that dont know the current exchange. 75cents usd buys you 1 usd.
You could do the swap alot cheaper. But when you drop your car off at the facility of your choice. There will be extra charges that dont normaly occur at home.
Regards,
Marko Stilinovic
Forcefed Racing
12-06-2008, 11:37 AM
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12-06-2008, 01:03 PM
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Ok let me rephrase that. I have the means to do thw swap for around 6k USD. All of the fabrication can be done by myself. ( work in a sheetmetal shop and this all comes really easily accessable and doable. If you buy a built motor off of the boards then there is no core. It would be from a private seller and so no core would be needed. However i have not yet looked into the workings of hte clutch and the modifications that would need to be done there. However i am sure that it can not be to expensive considering any labor or fabricatioin could be done by myslef or the people i know. However i like to see that some people are actually taking the steps to do this and kind of being the pionners. Nice to see that there are some people that could answer some questions i may have along the way.
12-07-2008, 09:41 AM
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Ok let me rephrase that. I have the means to do thw swap for around 6k USD. All of the fabrication can be done by myself. ( work in a sheetmetal shop and this all comes really easily accessable and doable. If you buy a built motor off of the boards then there is no core. It would be from a private seller and so no core would be needed. However i have not yet looked into the workings of hte clutch and the modifications that would need to be done there. However i am sure that it can not be to expensive considering any labor or fabricatioin could be done by myslef or the people i know. However i like to see that some people are actually taking the steps to do this and kind of being the pionners. Nice to see that there are some people that could answer some questions i may have along the way.
Next you should complete the swap. And only then you can share what it cost you, and what kind of time was spent. Until then, your estimate is just an educated guess.
Good luck!
12-07-2008, 01:35 PM
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Got back from Langley last fri. They re-routed the waste gate back to the exhuast. Thank god, now I can get her into boost and not damage everybody's ears in a 5 block radius. Marko also did some fine tuning to fix the fartyness under decel. It's seems perfect now. Still working on getting some video. Wont be to long
Last edited by Dethwalkin; 12-07-2008 at 01:46 PM.
12-07-2008, 04:23 PM
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Yes you can get a motor for 3500us this translates to 4000 cad. This engine will be a basic street port with no structural modifications. Also you will be needing to provide a core. This is an extra 1000$. Also you will be needing a custom manifold(intake and exhaust) and alot of fabrication (aluminum and steel) Dot forget your clutch, custom downpipe,intercooler, bov, boost control, piping, wastegate, ems, fuel system etc...
Now you need to get this all installed and tuned. The bill is easily 15-20k Canadian. For those that dont know the current exchange. 75cents usd buys you 1 usd.
You could do the swap alot cheaper. But when you drop your car off at the facility of your choice. There will be extra charges that dont normaly occur at home.
Regards,
Marko Stilinovic
Forcefed Racing
Now you need to get this all installed and tuned. The bill is easily 15-20k Canadian. For those that dont know the current exchange. 75cents usd buys you 1 usd.
You could do the swap alot cheaper. But when you drop your car off at the facility of your choice. There will be extra charges that dont normaly occur at home.
Regards,
Marko Stilinovic
Forcefed Racing
Given the REW will safely make a good bit more power too, this is a pretty good deal since there's a lot of labor to do the conversion.
If you guys are making your money strictly on 'paid by the hour' work, this is the way to go. However, if you 'product-ized' this into a kit you could sell it for an additional revenue stream whilst still getting your hourly labor rate on other work. You'd be price-competitive with other options at $5-7k or at $10k with a REW thrown in?
Since there are a lot of blown FI Renesis engines and none that I know of with 50k+ miles FI, there should be a market for this. (OK, so I'm sure there might be a few boosted Renesis engines that have lasted 50k+ miles without a rebuild, but for the Renesis the ratio of blown/durable is MUCH lower FI than for the REW for a given WHP).
Once again, well done and my regrets that I wasted so much cash trying to get the Renesis to make decent power when this route seems much more efficacious.
12-07-2008, 04:30 PM
#89
Since there are a lot of blown FI Renesis engines and none that I know of with 50k+ miles FI, there should be a market for this. (OK, so I'm sure there might be a few boosted Renesis engines that have lasted 50k+ miles without a rebuild, but for the Renesis the ratio of blown/durable is MUCH lower FI than for the REW for a given WHP).
My engine was torn down and rebuilt due to one such error, but the engine had pretty much zero issues and looked great considering what it had gone through. See my sig for the rebuild link. If you run FI with a reflashed pcm and don't try to push things to the limit (staying under 350 whp), I don't see any reason why you couldn't get 100-150k out of a renesis.
btw, 50k miles is a lot for a FI car. Most people aren't out of warranty yet. My car only has 50k miles total and I bought it new in early 2004 and it's a daily driver.
12-07-2008, 06:59 PM
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I think you're looking at the results without considering the cause. The RX-8 market prior to 2008 was in it's infancy. We had emanage blue, ultimate, and int-x. We had people tossing coils around without knowing the required dwell. There was a lot of trial and error.
My engine was torn down and rebuilt due to one such error, but the engine had pretty much zero issues and looked great considering what it had gone through. See my sig for the rebuild link. If you run FI with a reflashed pcm and don't try to push things to the limit (staying under 350 whp), I don't see any reason why you couldn't get 100-150k out of a renesis.
btw, 50k miles is a lot for a FI car. Most people aren't out of warranty yet. My car only has 50k miles total and I bought it new in early 2004 and it's a daily driver.
My engine was torn down and rebuilt due to one such error, but the engine had pretty much zero issues and looked great considering what it had gone through. See my sig for the rebuild link. If you run FI with a reflashed pcm and don't try to push things to the limit (staying under 350 whp), I don't see any reason why you couldn't get 100-150k out of a renesis.
btw, 50k miles is a lot for a FI car. Most people aren't out of warranty yet. My car only has 50k miles total and I bought it new in early 2004 and it's a daily driver.
I agree that the reflashed PCM is the right way to go.
Also, MM & Ray's kit & Ray's radiator help too.
Having said this, boosted Renesis engines all seem to blow rear apex seals and no one has figured out how to stop that happening. These guys think it's because the design of the exhaust ports guarantees heat build up when FI. Maybe so.
There's plenty of older RX-7s (FC, FD) that have clocked well over 100k miles boosted.
No known FI RX-8s with over 50k, and LOTS of boosted RX-8s that pop rear apex seals with < 50k.
Maybe Ray & Jeff have got it all figured out...only time will tell, but they're ahead of everyone else, IMHO.
12-07-2008, 09:18 PM
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12-07-2008, 09:19 PM
#93
Clearly.
As I said earlier, most people only have 50k total miles on their car. Therefor it is unlikely that there are going to be many with 50k FI since there wasn't any turbo kits back in 2004, and we have 10 year engine warranties.
As I said earlier, most people only have 50k total miles on their car. Therefor it is unlikely that there are going to be many with 50k FI since there wasn't any turbo kits back in 2004, and we have 10 year engine warranties.
12-08-2008, 08:30 AM
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The only problem with the results here, is that there is no back to back testing and data collection. Every blown up Renisis has its own story. Or thoughts on how or why it blew up. This is the same story as when the boosting of Rew engines were in the works.
Many people thought it was the apex seals. So then everyone went through a 3mm craze. Sure bigger is stronger but even over time the 3mm let go and the problem carried over to the corner seals, etc, etc.
I used 2mm std seals and have succesfully pumped 35 psi through the engine. Now I use a custom 2mm set and find it has more forgiveness and if there is a hick up you are not changing housings.
I am sure over time you will be able to make good reliable power with the renisis but we are in the learning stage and learning unfotunatley, is costly.
The one thing that is obvious is the exhaust ports. If you take a rew exhust port and compare it to a Renisis, you will see the effort, that taken to get rid of exhaust gasses.
This translates in boosted backpressure which creates heat and the first weak spot that will see the heat is the side seal.
The second thing is compression. This we all know is not a helper with the octane we are offered at the pumps. This is why you almost have to bring the tining back to 0 in order to have a safe boosted tune on the Renisis.
Everybody is progressing with the Renisis but we all know it will never be the powerhouse that the REW is. Remember it is all in the development stage.
Marko Stilinovic
Forcefed Racing
Many people thought it was the apex seals. So then everyone went through a 3mm craze. Sure bigger is stronger but even over time the 3mm let go and the problem carried over to the corner seals, etc, etc.
I used 2mm std seals and have succesfully pumped 35 psi through the engine. Now I use a custom 2mm set and find it has more forgiveness and if there is a hick up you are not changing housings.
I am sure over time you will be able to make good reliable power with the renisis but we are in the learning stage and learning unfotunatley, is costly.
The one thing that is obvious is the exhaust ports. If you take a rew exhust port and compare it to a Renisis, you will see the effort, that taken to get rid of exhaust gasses.
This translates in boosted backpressure which creates heat and the first weak spot that will see the heat is the side seal.
The second thing is compression. This we all know is not a helper with the octane we are offered at the pumps. This is why you almost have to bring the tining back to 0 in order to have a safe boosted tune on the Renisis.
Everybody is progressing with the Renisis but we all know it will never be the powerhouse that the REW is. Remember it is all in the development stage.
Marko Stilinovic
Forcefed Racing
12-09-2008, 05:55 PM
#95
I never thought I'd see the day when the 13B-REW would be considered the reliable engine swap of choice...
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).
Last edited by arghx7; 12-09-2008 at 06:07 PM.
12-09-2008, 07:49 PM
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I never thought I'd see the day when the 13B-REW would be considered the reliable engine swap of choice...
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).
Sounds like you have given up. Why don't you just go hang your head and kick some dirt. People like you make me want to puke. But don't worry, I'm sure your 500 hp will work out for ya. I'm routin' for you. Man, where do these people come from?
12-10-2008, 09:33 AM
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[quote=arghx7;2761308]I never thought I'd see the day when the 13B-REW would be considered the reliable engine swap of choice...
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).[/quot
If built and tuned right, your 13b will put down 500rwhp @ 30psi. But for reliability you will be laying down approx 350 on pump fuel. (t67)
Reliability is in the hands of the owner. Education is key. Once a REW is built and tuned. And the owner is educated, you end up with a reliable machine.
Good luck with your project.
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).[/quot
If built and tuned right, your 13b will put down 500rwhp @ 30psi. But for reliability you will be laying down approx 350 on pump fuel. (t67)
Reliability is in the hands of the owner. Education is key. Once a REW is built and tuned. And the owner is educated, you end up with a reliable machine.
Good luck with your project.
12-10-2008, 10:49 AM
#98
true dat--
Congrats on being a groundbreaker here.
Boosting an 8 properly (s/c or turbo) and addressing the systems that needed upgrading because of the "boosting" such as cooling , clutch, ignition etc is not inexpensive.
If you can do it yourself--great you will learn a lot during the journey.
I would recommend a water/meth injection system for ANY boosted rotory engine. Its a good backup insurance policy and it does give you control over your intake temps. It doesnt grant immunity toward detonation, but it does help during those possible moments.
Plus it cleans good
olddragger
Congrats on being a groundbreaker here.
Boosting an 8 properly (s/c or turbo) and addressing the systems that needed upgrading because of the "boosting" such as cooling , clutch, ignition etc is not inexpensive.
If you can do it yourself--great you will learn a lot during the journey.
I would recommend a water/meth injection system for ANY boosted rotory engine. Its a good backup insurance policy and it does give you control over your intake temps. It doesnt grant immunity toward detonation, but it does help during those possible moments.
Plus it cleans good
olddragger
12-10-2008, 03:10 PM
#99
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[QUOTE=ForcefedRacing;2762298]
I would be totally happy with 300WHP from an engine that lasts 100k miles. Flashing new targets into the stock ECU so the car constantly chases the optimal tune is a big step towards that.
However, the design of the Renesis (e.g. high compression ratio & weird exhaust ports) will always be problems for FI long-term reliability.
I never thought I'd see the day when the 13B-REW would be considered the reliable engine swap of choice...
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).[/quot
If built and tuned right, your 13b will put down 500rwhp @ 30psi. But for reliability you will be laying down approx 350 on pump fuel. (t67)
Reliability is in the hands of the owner. Education is key. Once a REW is built and tuned. And the owner is educated, you end up with a reliable machine.
Good luck with your project.
for those of you who are coming from an 8 with boltons, you have to realize that the entire definition of reliability changes on any major turbo project like this (rotary or not. Supras do blow up). Even if you have a shop-built car, you will be constantly wrenching on the thing, checking the AFR's under varying weather conditions, inspecting for boost leaks, and just basically monitoring for problems all the time. "Reliable" cars with 2.5 times their factory whp output do not exist, not if you have the same definition of reliability that 99% of the car-driving population has. Driving your car turns into flying an airplane, with regular pre-flight checks. And this is coming from a guy who is building and tuning his own motor, and should put down 500whp in the next couple months with a T67.
If you want a 400whp Rx-8 (no matter what route you choose to go) your first mod should be a bus ticket or a beater. The people who don't realize this have unrealistic expections and then usually give up and sell their car once they realize that in most cases your first engine will be your longest lasting (all Renesis oiling problems aside).[/quot
If built and tuned right, your 13b will put down 500rwhp @ 30psi. But for reliability you will be laying down approx 350 on pump fuel. (t67)
Reliability is in the hands of the owner. Education is key. Once a REW is built and tuned. And the owner is educated, you end up with a reliable machine.
Good luck with your project.
However, the design of the Renesis (e.g. high compression ratio & weird exhaust ports) will always be problems for FI long-term reliability.
12-20-2008, 11:48 PM
#100
i am a personal owner of two RX7 and by any means would i call a 13brew realiable... ive been through 2 motors. then i converted to a LS7.. which im currently working on....
ive seen these motors go with under 10k and under 5k... especially when you start making power **** breaks.
these motors built from a reputable shop can be anywhere from 3500-5000 dlaars depending what you are looking for..
i tihnk it is impressive but if i were gonna thorugh that kind of money into it i would went a different route. amybe LS or maybe sr20.. but personally RX8 isnt my cup of tea
good job and good luck
ive seen these motors go with under 10k and under 5k... especially when you start making power **** breaks.
these motors built from a reputable shop can be anywhere from 3500-5000 dlaars depending what you are looking for..
i tihnk it is impressive but if i were gonna thorugh that kind of money into it i would went a different route. amybe LS or maybe sr20.. but personally RX8 isnt my cup of tea
good job and good luck